Amazing Manhattans Anywhere

Ryan Burgess
Welcome to Episode 37 of front end Happy Hour, which is a special ama episode where we will start answering questions that have been sent in from our listeners. Before we get started and listening to the questions you've sent in. Let's also go around the table and give a brief introduction of today's panelists which this is one of the first and only episodes that we've all been take all together at the same time. So Ryan, you want to start it off?

Ryan Anklam
Sure. I'm Ryan in club. I'm a software engineer at Netflix.

Brian Holt
My name is Brian Holt, and I am a staff engineer at LinkedIn.

Jem Young
Microsoft.

Brian Holt
That's that's not a troll. That's actually true.

Derrick Showers
No one still knows.

Ryan Burgess
No one's gonna believe them now they're like Brian's given shit on that for so long.

Brian Holt
Yeah, no, this is the only time I'm gonna be truthful on this. It's back to bullshit next week. And it's your first day to congrats, it is my first. I didn't fuck it up yet.

Ryan Burgess
I guess this.

Augustus Yuan
My name is Augustus Yuan and I'm a front end engineer at Evernote.

Derrick Showers
My name is Derek showers am a senior software engineer at Brian's company.

Jem Young
Jem Young Senior Software Engineer at Netflix,

Stacy London
Stacy London from Devon Atlassian,

Mars Jullian
Mars Jullian, Senior Software Engineer at Netflix.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm a software engineering manager at Netflix. In each episode of the front end happier podcasts. We like to choose a keyword that if it's mentioned at all, in the episode, we will all take a drink. What did we decide today's keyword is

Brian Holt
experience

Ryan Burgess
experience?

Mars Jullian
Sounds so confident.

Ryan Burgess
So at any point in this episode, if we say the word experience, we will all take a drink. All right, well, let's start and play the first question from our listeners. Sushi Hello, my name is associate like soc. And I'm currently yesterday in that University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. My question is to how to choose a career that's different than software engineering. What do you think you will be doing and why?

Ryan Burgess
So if we were doing a career besides software engineering, what would it be?

Brian Holt
So I had kind of two different careers beforehand. I was a phylogenetic researcher, actually have published research on craps. So I was going into marine phylogeny

Ryan Burgess
crabs is in the animal or look at that

Brian Holt
goddamn animal, the sea creature. Jesus. The other one that I was doing is I almost majored in Italian literature. So I thought I was gonna do that. But I didn't. I kind of dropped out of college because I was really crappy at it. But you can speak Italian, I can speak Italian. It leads to great experiences. Yeah, cheers. Cheers.

Derrick Showers
I was just gonna say so you have experience in crabs.

Ryan Burgess
You're gonna see he has crabs. Now as much as you Derek.

Ryan Anklam
So if I wasn't a software engineer, I actually went to school to become an architect. And that's probably what I'd be doing. But I would be really bad at it. So I'm glad I ended up being a software engineer can be bad at that. Yes, I can be bad at that.

Ryan Burgess
So right before I went to school, I actually almost started a tattooing apprenticeship. So I could have actually been tattooing. I think that would have been fun. But I'm really glad I went in software engineering instead. I didn't even

Brian Holt
know Ryan like tattoos. Yeah.

Mars Jullian
So I think I'd actually be an interior designer, but my pet believe that. Yeah. So both my parents were architects, and I actually think that it influenced why I became a UI engineer, much like interior design. It's about building experiences and how people interact with users interact with the physical or in our case as software engineers, the digital space on websites, so I think they're pretty similar, or party planner, or a party planner. Yeah, but I think I'd go to school for interior design. If I had a second career.

Stacy London
Let's see, what would I do I really enjoyed I almost double majored in Management Information Systems and also like graphic design art degree. And so my modern art history class in college was one of my favorite classes my kind of always been obsessed with like modern art history. So I don't know if I'd be like some sort of weird like modern art historian or like, you know, something where there's just not not very many jobs. So I think the path I did was better path. There's more more jobs. Care about aesthetics? What's that?

Brian Holt
Who's your favorite artists?

Stacy London
Oh, geez, what kind of that's hard question. I know. Rothko, I really like Rothko. They make me very happy. His paintings Be happy.

Jem Young
If I was not an engineer, that'd be hard to software is so pervasive now. It's like in every industry, I guess, switch industries, maybe do something different. But I would actually, because I almost majored in math in college, I would actually run a body shop. Not a shop because I love cars. I love going fast. That's true. It's also engineering. So it's a different type of engineering. And it's very binary. It's like the thing works, or it doesn't. And, yeah, I'm glad to work on cars anymore, because it's just the money pit that I've just keep throwing money at. But that's what I would do if I was not a software engineer. Fast and Furious.

Brian Holt
Jem is too fast and too few.

Jem Young
That's true. To be named my body shop to

Derrick Showers
me, it's I went to school for journalism, and I worked in hospitality and I definitely didn't want to go back to hospitality. So but I think if I were to pursue it pursue if I would have pursued the journalism thing, I think that I'd want to do some sort of like travel journalism. I really like when I travel, blogging, or I've been it'd be really cool to be like an Anthony Bourdain, and just be able to like, drink all the time. Give a shit like, I feel like he's like periods by

Brian Holt
cheers. Sure. Yours.

Ryan Burgess
You're like drinking right now on a podcast? You don't get paid for it.

Derrick Showers
Yeah. And I'm like, in the same place every time. Sure. That's fair.

Brian Holt
I'd watch your show. Derek.

Augustus Yuan
Thank you. I'd watch it too. Dude. So okay, I actually have a funny story. So I had like this college crisis or high school crisis, they didn't know what to do. And then my dad, like wakes up in the middle of the night because my grandma calls him from China as like, Oh my God, I know what it comes to should do. He should be a hotel manager. So I told myself, like, if I didn't figure out what I wanted to do, I'd be a hotel manager for her. So I've done that. And that is Oh, really? No, no, it's the worst. Yeah, it's the worst. Okay. I was like, unless you like people get screaming at you about bed. Oh, that's true. Yeah. I was thinking of like, Oh, I could hook up my friends with like, the sweet. Yeah, I guess seriously. I think data science would be cool. I think data visualization is really cool topic, although maybe it bleeds into software engineering. I used to be into like movie editing, video editing. So that was something too. All right.

Ryan Burgess
Next question.

Kyle
This is Kyle selling a front end JavaScript developers in Portland, Oregon. And I have a question for you. Do you all work for large recognizable companies? When and how do you know that you are good enough to work at that level?

Augustus Yuan
I never did.

Ryan Burgess
That's my first initial thought.

Derrick Showers
I think this question is for Brian, when did you know you are good enough to work?

Brian Holt
At like, really, really big companies. Man. I know, Kyle, I had had dinner with Kyle, maybe a couple weeks ago, brother Kyle is a good guy. He's got an awesome beard. It's important. I think the answer to that question is I just I didn't really, like hit a threshold where I felt like I was good enough for any like, large company. For me, it's just that I happened into the Reddit opportunity. And it just kind of worked out. And then at that point, I realized that interviewing is bullshit. And as long as you can meet the right interviewer on the right day, then you can work at the right at that company. It's just kind of being prepared for those opportunities when they're sprung on you. And that's, there's no threshold that you need to meet. It's just keep working and keep trying and yeah, it'll it'll work out, I think, yeah, I

Ryan Burgess
think that for me, too, is like I never actually sat there and thought about is like, Yeah, I'm ready for this right now. I'm gonna go start applying to like, these large companies. For me, I actually was in Toronto, and I wanted a change and wanted a new challenge and was like, I'm going to move to the Bay Area, work at some startups. And that's what I want to do. And so that's what just forced me to do it. I didn't really think about I'm actually good enough for that. Apparently, I was okay, and was able to do it. But I hadn't really put thought to that.

Derrick Showers
Yeah, I think like, for me, I wanted the challenge of working in a at a Silicon Valley company, as cliche as that sounds like I was working in Philadelphia, an agency and I was like, okay, like, I just want to take the risk move out there and and, you know, I started as a contractor at Apple so it was was pretty easy roll for my first rollout here. And, and then it just I think, I think if you if you have the passion for it, I mean, it doesn't really, I think that that will shine through and maybe you will get the first opportunity if you like your first. If your first interview is at Netflix or something, anything I think you just have to be prepared with maybe not getting the first year your ideal position, but because I happen to be actually interviewed at Apple before the contractor position and for Apple Store, and they turned me down after a phone interview. So I think you know, as long as you're okay with that, I think that there's Yeah, I think that passion will shine through,

Ryan Burgess
but also don't give up too. I like that too is like just keep trying. It will happen. Yeah, this

Brian Holt
is like the third time apply to LinkedIn. So

Mars Jullian
I think there's also something to be said for going into an interview and being really honest with where you think your shortcomings are and as well As your strengths and I was actually encouraged pretty strongly by my boyfriend to apply at Netflix, despite the fact that I was like, I'll never get a position there. I mean, if you look at all their job descriptions, they'll have the word senior in them, I'm not at all. And I just went into it very open with you know, I'm not sure I'm a good fit, but I would love the challenges. And if I don't think any of us in this room, we would all agree would never feel good enough to work at this level. But it's about being open and honest with yourself and just also being open to new opportunities, new experiences, haha, cheers. And just being willing to learn, you know, JavaScript is changing every day. And so is the probably the company everyone's working out.

Stacy London
Yeah, I think good enough, maybe isn't the right word, like excited enough? Like, I don't work with people, anybody that is like, just paycheck to clock in clock out, like everybody I work with is really excited about what they do. And that in and of itself, I think is the differentiator is being genuinely excited about what you do. For me,

Ryan Anklam
when I was working in Wisconsin, I kind of felt like a big fish in a little pond. And I kind of started feeling uncomfortable with that. And I think at that point, that's when I knew that I wanted something bigger and a bigger challenge. And I knew that coming down to Silicon Valley, I would be a little fish in a huge pond. And I had to be okay with that. And I was able to come to terms with that and realize that when I came down here, I was gonna be nothing. Nobody, right? I mean, just so many, just geniuses and brilliant people down here. And when I stopped being scared of that, I think that's when I knew I was ready to make the jump.

Mars Jullian
Although I think it's interesting that everyone, like would compare themselves to someone else, because everyone's good at different things. So you may be like, Oh, they're great at this one thing, but you know, I'm, I could be good at this other thing.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, actually, I think you guys all touched on, like, really good points. And I think the goal of the question was like, oh, when do I feel ready? And I think the the better question to ask yourself is like, do you want it? Because I think it's the interviewers job to tell if you're ready or not, like you just apply? And like, think if you work hard, and like, study hard for it, let the interviewer decide if you're ready, you know, my dad

Brian Holt
always used to say, don't make decisions for other people, which I really like that like, let them decide if you are a fit at that company or not at that moment in time. All right.

Ryan Burgess
Let's go to the next question. Kalia Hi, friends, Happy Hour panelists. This is Kalia From Indiana's. I am an aspiring JavaScript developer. I've been studying the basics for about nine months. And in two months, I am joining a 12 week immersive JavaScript boot camp. I'm just curious what suggestions you would have or advice you would give someone in my situation to work on leading up to and during the boot camp to make myself more marketable and more hireable. As I know, just the boot camp alone is is not going to fulfill all of the job requirements. So I'd love to hear your advice. Thank you so much.

Jem Young
That one for me is an easy question. And Derek mentioned earlier and is going to be a common theme throughout this whole podcast. Find something you're passionate about, like some specific elements of web development, and build a project. So my advice going into a boot camp is find some aspirational goal of something you want to build, like I want to build a web app that does x, and then kind of funnel your learning into that app. And then, at the end of the bootcamp build that app. And if someone's passionate about something that will shine through 100 times more than the finest polished Ruby on Rails snake app. I

Brian Holt
don't know what people build these days. But it's yet no, you

Jem Young
nailed it. Yeah. But dip, find something you're passionate about. And the passion will carry you much farther than any other advice you'll probably get.

Ryan Burgess
You know, yeah, I think that's a very good advice. Because at that point, you you have something to show to because I think that's the hardest thing is getting out of a boot camp. The hardest thing is getting that job that first job. And you know, people want experience. What What experience do you have? Well, I built this web app. I built this app, whatever it is. Oh, yes. Cheers. Cheers. I almost missed that one.

Mars Jullian
This is This turned out to be a good keyword. Yeah.

Derrick Showers
One thing I want to add too is like I hear a lot of people say, oh, I want to build this app, but it's already been done. I think you should just do it. Anyway. I know that seems like simple. But a lot of people feel that they can't because I think the other thing is like when you build something you're really passionate about it, you'll find like your own little niche or like direction to go with it that is unique. So I would just small but I would just not worry about that.

Ryan Burgess
I think another thing too to prepare is connecting with people. I think like we always talked about that we say like get on Twitter because there's a lot of people there, connect with them go to meetups, like see what other people are doing at certain companies so that you have an idea what's interesting, and what's out there available to you after you're done school or a boot camp that pay these are the types of jobs that are out there. Also do informational interviews. I think that's something that people don't typically do often enough is contact someone through LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever. Don't necessarily ask them for a job or that if they have roles available, ask them about the job that they're doing and the type of work that that company is doing. It's you just made a connection and you also get to learn about that company and most people can usually spare a half an hour to talk on a phone for that kind of stuff.

Brian Holt
I think something else that I've seen with a lot of especially Bootcamp grads, is that while there's like a lot of like really exciting and super fun parts of boot camp and all that kind of stuff, you also have like a lot of discouraging moments ahead of you, it's really easy to hang your head and say, like, I'm not good at this, or I'm not cut out for this, or this other person got a job before me and I thought I was doing better than them. And there's a lot of just temptation to compare yourself against others. And it's there are really hard parts about this. And it's heartbreaking in the field right now, especially since there are so many boot camps, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from doing it. If you're if you're into it, and you want to do it, you can definitely do it. But this is definitely a field right now. The people that are winning and that are breaking the field are those that are working hard, and not necessarily the ones that are like the best, the brightest, the smartest on anything like that right now you have to work hard, you have to grind, you have to apply to a lot of jobs. You have to build projects, just everything that everyone else has said. And it's it's the persistence that's going to win out and you just have to know that the hard times are coming and that you're going to be willing to, you know, face that.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, one word. So I actually have some friends who have done boot camps. And they've kind of told me how like, it's really intense and fast paced, depending on how long this bootcamp is, by No, I had a friend who said that his boot camp was like super fast pace. And literally, they would just turn out apps be like, Oh, today we're making a React app. Okay, now we're making an Ember app. And it's like, it can be like, kind of overwhelming to process that. And it's like trying to find time to like, really absorb. Like, why those frameworks like built were built the way they were, I think, has some value to

Ryan Burgess
think one thing that's nice about that, too, is do you also get exposure to a bunch of things too. But that can be really hard. It's better to be like I know, react. I don't know Angular, I don't know, Ember, but I know react. And I know it well. But also you get more experience and more exposure to it, which is cool. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. All right. Let's go to the next question. Nick Hey, guys, this is Nick creed. I'm a college student right now, on a CSX track. And I was wondering, I'm graduating in a year and wanting to get your guys's opinions on, what's the best way to break in industry, especially now? Do you think it's more show someone a project that you've worked on? Or just apply for everything? Thanks, guys. Have a great show. Both.

Ryan Burgess
See, I actually disagree. I don't think you should apply to everything. I think that's one thing that going back to what I said too, is find the things that you're interested in. I know that's hard at the first job, like you just want the experience. Cheers. But I do think it's important to find the right job, or at least something that you're interested in. Because I've I've made that mistake where I've kind of like, Oh, it'll be an okay job. But then I didn't last very long, because it was not interesting work.

Brian Holt
Yeah. But he asked, Should I apply everywhere, right? And I think that interviewing is, everyone here knows my attitude about interviewing. I think it's bullshit, right? So I think it's this whole separate skill to writing great code and coding great apps. And the only way you get that skill is just by doing a bunch of interviews. And so I encourage people to just go do interviews and if it's a crap job, you'll find out in the interview, if you have your eyes open to it, and you just turn them down at the end, but he's got a ton of great experience of how to interview and how to interview well,

Stacy London
you can even craft I mean, you can kind of funnel your interview experience too, though. Like if you know that like whiteboard interviews make me want to pass out. Okay, well, there's like sugar pirate, what's her name? Surefire. She has that list that she created of companies that don't do that kind of interview. What a great resource. Like, if you know yourself well enough to know what you're good at what you're not good at, then you can find companies that maybe align better

Augustus Yuan
with that. Yeah, actually, like coming out of college. I don't know if this person's college does it. But my career center offered services to practice whiteboarding. So I highly encourage doing that. And, and the other thing is like, you're actually like, in a really good environment, because you're surrounded by so many, like, college students who are also trying to apply definitely, like try to pair up with someone and practice whiteboarding with them. It's like, it makes a huge world of difference to practice. I applied everywhere when I was in college, just because I really wanted to get the experience. And like I failed a lot of interviews, but I learned really, really fast that way. I think

Ryan Anklam
another important thing is inject yourself in the community, go to meetups, you know, talk to people that are doing jobs that you want and talk to them ask them questions, say, hey, you know, do any openings that might fit my skill set? Or do you have anything that you know, anybody that's looking for people, you know, just meet people? I think that's the most powerful thing you can have is his friends and people that know or that are in the industry?

Stacy London
I don't think I've I don't think any of my jobs have been cold applications. And people you know, it's it's from talking to people getting to know people understanding what what the company is like, knowing that that's a company want to go to that kind of thing. So like that. I think that I think that's really good advice.

Ryan Burgess
What do you think about applying to certain jobs like I kind of feel like startups might To actually be at like smaller startups might be a good area to apply to, because they're looking for people like so often that they can't necessarily get someone who's been in the industry for a long time that and it's also a good place to get the right experience chairs, you're getting a wide variety of it, you know, you might not just be working on the front end, you might be doing some back end, you might be diving all over the place just to get something out the door. And I think you do learn a lot very quickly, which I think is really powerful when you're first starting out,

Brian Holt
definitely looking for people that will grow into it. That definitely happened to me at Reddit, like they definitely hired me way before I was ready to do the tasks that I had to do. But I just I had to figure it out the sink or swim and I mostly swam

Ryan Burgess
breathing,

Jem Young
debatable swam all the way to Microsoft

Brian Holt
scrambling. Let's go with that. I like that sink, swim or scramble.

Jem Young
That's a general advice. Anybody graduating with a CS degree is understand you don't know crap. But do you think you do because you spent four or five years learning it, but you get into the real industry. And it's completely different from everything you learned. Like understand that and like be humble when applying because I've seen a lot of people apply. And just like, I know all this, I'm like cool, not useful. Like it's great, you know that. But this is what we actually do in the real world. So I think if you understand that going in, you're better off. And I go with the apply everywhere. Because your first job, you just got to get first job, like that's the hardest one. So you're probably not gonna get hired Atlassian or Evernote, things like that. But take a startup. Like it may not be a sexy industry, but experience is experience. Cheers. Cheers.

Augustus Yuan
Cheers. Cheers. Yeah, I don't know if this was in the scope of the question. But definitely, like, if you can get an internship before you hit the hole applying to like your last year, like, honestly, like, I learned so much in internship, like you just like, I think Jem touched on it. But like, you just really don't know what it's like working like in software engineering until you like actually experience it and work on like production level code. So like, if you can get an internship, like it'll do you so much good. It's like the best decision ever made.

Ryan Burgess
Internships are awesome, too. Because it's your foot in the door, like, yeah, I believe my internship was unpaid, which kind of sucks. But whatever. If I did two months of unpaid internship and as part of school, so fine, whatever. It's the same as like being in the classroom, but you're actually in the real world. And that was awesome. They ended up hiring me because it's like, Hey, this guy knows what he's doing. Maybe he doesn't, and we won't hire him. They have the inner out at that point. But they ended up hiring me because hey, he knew what he was doing. He's here, he's doing the work. Let's just hire him after this. Like he's done his internship. So I think there is some benefits to that as well.

Brian Holt
Like along those lines, I've actually been helping out through this media during my tenure of being unemployed, mentor, a couple of people. And so there's like these, like apprenticeship contracts, you can find this stuff media does them. So you might check that out. Or even just taking like a small business contract, right, and just, you know, getting paid like 35 bucks an hour or something like that. And you know, building a car dealer website or something like that, just like shipping some code to production, I think is really helpful.

Ryan Burgess
That's really cool. He get the experience at that point, for sure. Cheers.

Brian Holt
All right.

Ryan Burgess
Next question. Eric My name's Eric. I live in San Francisco. So here's what I do. I'm finishing at app Academy right now. And so my question builds on something that guests said a few episodes back for him to stash hours, she said that she went to Dev Bootcamp. And when she was finished, she didn't feel at job ready. And I can rotate. I feel like I've been preparing to pass an interview, but then maybe on my first day, it'll be a disaster. And I'll just be like a huge burden to the team. Because I'm so new to this, perhaps it's imposter syndrome. But either way, what would your advice be to anybody who is looking at starting a first job has a good foundation, but definitely just a foundation? What resources should I look for? And what tools should I use to learn? I'm particularly interested in front end, and which is even, which is different. It's weird, because that can maybe focus a lot on algorithms and backends and computer sciency stuff. So even a bigger disadvantage. Anyways, the advice, I guess, should be more general, just anybody that could use it.

Jem Young
I will give you the same advice. Brian holds me on my first day at Netflix, because I was feeling the same way. If you're in the door, you're gonna have to be there. It's not your job to determine if you're good enough, that's their job. So you're there to learn. You're going to screw up, it's going to happen. We've all done it. And just accept that and just learn as much as you can.

Derrick Showers
I think like if you're going to a boot camp, I think I think Boot Camps are great. And I think that that's a great way to switch careers or you know, maybe you've already went to school like like Sarah did, and for something else and like I did too and wanted to switch I'd have the Unfortunately, I have the opportunity to go to a boot camp. But anyway, my point is that boot camps want to sell you on their program, right. And so a lot of times, the way they do that is by saying that you'll be ready for a job as soon as you're done. And it's impossible, I think, to spend nine weeks or 12 weeks, especially if it's your first time doing it, to be ready to, to jump right into a job. I'm not saying you can't get a job as soon as you're done graduating boot camp, but I think the mistake that a lot of people make is that they think that they are going to be 100%. Ready, I think it's just the start. Boot Camp is like the way the way that you learn how to learn or what to learn, or, you know, steps moving forward, I know, it's tough, because you're like quitting your job, because there's boot camps spending a lot of money on this boot camp. And it's definitely not gonna be easy. But I think like, if you choose to go to boot camp, I think it's an absolutely great choice. But I think you just need to be prepared that there's going to be time afterwards that you just need to spend like, continuing education,

Ryan Burgess
I'm gonna say it like I still learn things to this date, I'm still looking at new frameworks, or new ways of doing something I know everyone at this table is is like you're constantly learning. And so yeah, just because you went to a boot camp or had a CS degree, that doesn't do it, it's like you got to continue learning.

Ryan Anklam
One thing that I want to stress is learn vanilla JavaScript, know your JavaScript, it's really easy to get caught up in whatever frameworks really hot these days. But I can't stress enough how important just knowing JavaScript is, you know, all these frameworks are built on JavaScript, and there's going to be a new one in a couple of years. And if you're a really solid JavaScript developer, you're going to be just fine. If you rely on a framework for everything you do, when that one's gone, you're going to be in some serious trouble.

Brian Holt
I'd say ask just a ton of questions, ask all the dumb questions, ask all the stupid questions. Like the fact of the matter is the first time you step in on your first job, you're a deficit to the company. Like that's just like the rough reality of the situation. But the company knows that, right? They're investing in you, they're investing in you. And they're betting from what they've seen in you that you can grow into something that's gonna be really productive, and they don't have to pay a ton of money. Oh, well

Stacy London
then do some research to like, there are companies that people that work at these companies will blog about the culture, they're independent of the company, and they'll say, we're a great company for mentorship to have people that will help you when you're new. So like, there's nice little flags you can watch out for and be like that company seems like they're better at welcoming new people and mentoring them and being inclusive. Like that, that that's a great way to like, focus your efforts on which companies to interview for the ones that are welcoming to Junior.

Brian Holt
One last just small piece of advice, learn fucking get. Oh, like, I just had that. That's just a real sore point with me. So just learn some fucking get.

Stacy London
There's some really great tutorials on the website.

Ryan Burgess
are right. Next question. Rob A friend and happy hour crew. My name is Rob. I'm from Sacramento, California. And I'm currently working as a front end developer for startups. My question for you is this as someone with career aspirations to one day lead a team? Do you have any advice for people wanting to make a career transition into leadership roles? How did you do it? as well? Do you have any advice for those entering leadership roles? What are some common Nanos, you still see today? I know this question may be geared a little more towards Ryan. But if anyone else has thoughts, I'd really love to love the podcast, keep up the good work. Wishing you an awesome summer.

Ryan Burgess
So yeah, I can probably add some to that. But I expect there's probably some good opinions, not just mine. To me, getting manager experiences actually a really difficult thing to obtain. And I did say experience cheers. But it is something that's really hard to obtain, because no one's just gonna say, Okay, well, here's a team, and you're gonna go lead this team, and we'll test you out, that doesn't typically happen. So something that I've always recommended to people that have asked me is how do I get some sort of testing the waters or anything like that, and what it's like to be in a leadership role. So I would say, try and lead a project lead, you know, maybe it's a development team, but lead a project, make sure that you're, you know, the lead developer on it. I think there are ways to do that. It's not, you're not fully ingrained in it. But I think that's a good way to start. Being a manager is basically like starting a new career, though, too. It's just because you're a good software engineer doesn't mean you're going to be a good software engineering manager. And I think you need to really think about that. I think some people go into management or leadership roles, because they think that's like stepping up in their career. And I actually don't believe that to be true. I think there is amazing software engineers that are way better than me, and they should continue being an amazing software engineer and continue down that path. And there are companies that reward that and make sure that people are growing in being software engineers. So I don't think you should do it as a stepping stool because I don't believe that to be next step.

Ryan Anklam
I have two things that I want to add to that. And the first one is just check your motivation. Make sure you don't want to be a leader to be able to tell people what to do right to to be a delegator, whatever we make, we want to be a leader to have an influence on a greater product, right? You want to have a bigger influence on the outcome of a product, not the people that are under you. And the second one is make sure that you're going to be okay with having difficult conversations, right? Being a leader isn't all delegating tasks and making easy decisions, it's having hard conversations with people and letting people know where they need to improve and things like that. And make sure your you know, personality is going to be okay with dealing with those hard parts of being a manager as well,

Mars Jullian
kind of want to add to something that Ryan Burgess weave to Ryan's said, it's just for me, I think there's there's you can be an engineering manager. But sometimes being a leader isn't about the position that you have. And I would just say be open to anything and everything that's going to happen on your team. One of the best ways that I learned at my previous company was actually mentoring new employees who came in and while at first, it seems like, you know, it's, it's a little bit harder to get your work done. Sometimes being a leader or being a senior engineer isn't about, you know, shipping code all the time, it's about being a mentor and being a resource for other people. And I think that that's a great way to start having productive conversations, sometimes difficult ones, especially if you're trying to get them to a place that they're like, someone you're mentoring to a place that they're not currently. And you can also find the things that you like to mentor about. And then you can, you know, specialize some of your skills and digging deeper in that and leading larger projects about that.

Ryan Burgess
Also add that, in my experience, I was thrown into it, it was something that I was excited about, it was a new challenge, but I was thrown in one thing I would say, and I've said it to other people that have tried to be managers is you're trying like completely cut off from being an engineer. It's really, really hard. But what happened to me was, I was still shipping projects. And so I was doing about 50% Being an engineer and 50% being a manager, which meant I was not doing anything really well, I was doing a really bad job at both, because I was splitting my time. And I think it's really important to just say, Okay, now I have this new job, and I have to focus on it. And I think that's difficult. Like it's really hard. I still struggle with that days that we're on like, Oh, I'm not coding as much like that's, that's hard. And especially as a software engineer, that's what we that's why we're software engineers, we love creating things and creating the code and doing that. And that's, that can be a difficult decision to give up.

Derrick Showers
I think too, like if you get thrown into it, it's okay, if you fail and don't or don't like it like because I think the worst thing with a manager is somebody that's just there because they feel like that's their next step. And like they have to be there in order to progress their career, like, if you rather would be I see. And you find out after three months for being a manager, I think sometimes it's like a little hit on your pride to like, go back. But I think you should because at least in this industry, you can still usually do that without taking a pay cut. And like you have advantages where you don't have you don't have another industry. So yeah,

Stacy London
I did that. I bounced the UI frame teams for a bit. And I was like, I just want to go back to making the things and I think a piece of advice I would have from that experience was would be to ask questions about what that role gives you. So I thought that baby by having that role, I would have influence and budget to do the things that I thought was right for the product. And then when I found out that I didn't actually there would be no budget to do the things that I thought would make the product better than I was in this like tough thing like, Oh, I thought well, this would help me get there and get the team and the product there. And then it wasn't it wasn't part of that package. And so that's a frustrating thing. So I think it's good to ask a lot of questions like, what's your motivation for doing that role? And will that role have the funding and the right people? Will you be given those tools to do the things you want to

Brian Holt
do? I just wanted to clarify that I see means individual contributor,

Augustus Yuan
I was just gonna Oh. Thank you for clarifying that. I

Brian Holt
just learned what it is. So I wanted to share.

Ryan Burgess
So next question. Matt Hey, everyone, my name is Matt. I'm a front end engineer at an advertising agency in San Jose. A few episodes ago, you guys talked about burnout. My question for you guys is how do you deal with burnout in terms of interviews slash hiring denials? How do you how do you power through the never ending San Francisco Bay Area? Denial?

Ryan Burgess
Dealing with the impasse on a roll does kind of feel shitty? But I think one thing that I would recommend is asking the recruiting team or whoever you're talking to whoever's turning you down? Why they've decided to turn you down, like what can you learn from that? Because I think Brian, you mentioned it earlier is like do as many interviews as possible, you're going to learn from it. It's a great learning opportunity. And it's a great way for you to get feedback on what you can improve on. So that the next interviewer that you can just work on that and hopefully that does help you. And maybe after 10 of them you do find the right job and it does suck I don't know, other than that is asking for feedback. I think to me, that's like The best piece of advice I can give as

Brian Holt
someone that went through a bunch of interviews recently and got passed on it for a few of them, like, it's, it's sucks, like I'm like, I think you just need to acknowledge that it sucks. And like deal with it how you would normally deal with like, grief, like situations, right? Like there's like meditation, mindfulness, going for a run, like any one of those things that you do to deal with stress. And just, again, keep in mind that the old Brian hold mantra that interviewing is bullshit, right? Like you got the wrong person on the wrong day, or you were off your game or something like that. Or maybe it was, it really just was not a good fit for you, right? And you can ask him how, like how you did, I'm gonna say most companies are just not gonna tell you, because they're assholes. And they're like, afraid of legal repercussions, which I don't think there's any, like real substance to that, but whatever, that's what they do. But just keeping your head up, just realize that, you know, the last one didn't go well. And then the next one might like, it's just, it's a game of persistence.

Derrick Showers
And don't take it personally. I know, that's, like easier. So

Augustus Yuan
yeah,

Brian Holt
I totally do it.

Derrick Showers
I mean, it's like, it's, it's what we all get burnt out by is like comparing ourselves to others, or a lot, you know, that's like a big factor and getting burnout. And you've now just been told that you're not as good as others for a role. So it's really hard not to take personally, but I think, yeah, you just have to just try to use it to your advantage. And that, okay, like, I know what I need to do next time better and just go with it.

Stacy London
Yeah, I think for me, like, I've just been like, well, I got turned off from some roles where the, the interview was heavy algorithm based. And I'm like, you know, what, you know, you'd actually don't want, I can offer you something other than that. But that's not obviously what you want. You want someone that's like, hyper focused on algorithms, and super good at that. That's just not me. And like, I had, I had to, I had to think about it that way, as opposed to, like, I'm deficient in this thing.

Mars Jullian
I think Brian kind of touched on that a little bit, too, is you could get someone on a bad day or you know, the interview process doesn't really align up with the way you think and, and part of being denied doesn't always have to do anything with with your hard skills, you could still be a great engineer, but that company could not be a good fit for you. And the other way around, kind of like what Stacey was touching on, I think it's, it's easier to say than do because we all have our emotional reactions at first. And those are totally valid. But and I'm not saying don't continue to introspect, but also realize that it's not always about your skills. And it's not always about you as a person, it could be the company you're applying for the processes they have, they could not, they could just have not seen how awesome you are. And that's fine. That's fine.

Ryan Anklam
One piece of advice I want to say is if they tell you they can't give you a reason why you didn't get hired, don't accept that. Ask them in different ways. So when I've gotten turned down, I've asked them for things and they've said no, I've said well then can use go back to the interviewer and ask them what I could do better. What areas should I work on or something like that? There's always a way to get that feedback. So don't don't don't just accept no and move on. Try to get that information, work hard and ask the question and many as many different ways as it takes.

Brian Holt
I tried to burn the bridge, it's time to fuck up. Sushi Next, hello, sushi, like at sushi. And I'm currently yesterday in the University of British Columbia, in Vancouver, Canada. So my question is, a while ago, I saw this Reddit post about a guy who blew up his company, his production DB on his first day. So I was just curious if you guys had similar stories where you take time off, when you were still a new hire.

Brian Holt
We have a whole episode about that video. I do want to respond to that Reddit post. I know exactly what he's talking about.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. And you weren't on the episode when it came up. I think we can agree story. The last episode we did it came up in the Gus has brought it up. So I would love to hear your thoughts on

Brian Holt
so that's for shit that he got fired about that, like that's definitely on the company for giving him a script that could delete the whole database. Yeah. So that is 100% of the company. It's not on that developer at all, and fuck that company.

Derrick Showers
And that happens so often. I think like, like, just in general, maybe this is coming from like larger companies. I don't know, because I've worked a lot of larger companies. But like, sometimes you're made to feel as an engineer that like you're able to fuck things like that up like and you shouldn't be able to do that. You know, like, if like something even something small the product, you know, like, I think it's because you're the one who's like tactically touching whatever it is, like you're the person that everyone points fingers to. But I think I think you just have to realize, because this will really help you not to get burned out is that there is a whole team that is especially in a bigger company. There's a whole team that's responsible for a product and whether even if I'm not writing the code, they're just as if not more responsible for

Ryan Burgess
the whole company is like even if it's a small like two person, company, three person company, all three of you. You're I don't care

Brian Holt
who doesn't like layers of failure failure here, right? Like it shouldn't have backups, they should have permission. Oh, yeah, the test DB should not have any access to production. There's so many layers here. Like so I have deleted production code before at my internship in Utah. And it wasn't a big deal to like, Okay, you kind of fucked up and you have we had Like 15 minutes of downtime, because you bet we'll just restore the backups. And you're not fired. Okay, cool.

Ryan Burgess
We're all human, we make mistakes, that person getting let go for one mistake. I mean, if this guy continually makes that same mistake over and over again, do fucking one day one. And that's terrible.

Derrick Showers
I just want to share real quick, I don't know if I got to share this in a previous episode or not. But I remember my first job, I was working on redesign for PetSmart. And I pushed code into PetSmart, that changed all their prices to the sale price, it basically just using the wrong like API, it was something simple. It was just like, and the API wasn't very well documented. I'll use that as an excuse, I don't know, maybe I just really sucked, but but I've never like so like, like, in broad and it was like at the end, you know, the learning I got from this is when you're like really quick at things. Sometimes you just need to slow down and, and think through things, even if you're under a lot of pressure. And I was working for an agency. So there's lots of pressures, you know, but anyway, but yeah, my manager saying next down next to me, he's like, this is this is this bad?

Ryan Burgess
Don't do this again.

Augustus Yuan
Like yeah, actually have one. It was a couple of months after us, Ryan. I didn't share it on the other episode, because, but now it's not a big deal. But when I was cleaning up some redirects on marketing website, there's this like one redirect, there's like slash, I slash whatever. And then it goes back to like, our web client. So it's like, oh, what does this do? This goes nowhere. So I deleted it. Apparently, it's like a redirect that all of our emails like marketing emails used to for Work Chat registrations. So And apparently, we don't really get errors about it or something, because it's just people not going. So then the next morning, it's like, yeah, wow. Like, we have had considerably less less registrations all night. And I found out, it's because I removed that redirect. So it wasn't like, brought it to the ground stop.

Derrick Showers
You stop people from using work? Yeah, that's probably

Ryan Burgess
I mean, that's a good, that's probably a good thing. But they're again, that should have been clear documentation of don't remove this, or this thing where

Augustus Yuan
there's a big fat label now, but the one thing is good. It was like no one made a big deal of it. Like, I don't know how we would have I don't

Ryan Burgess
think that's your mistake, right? Like that literally is everyone's mistake for not documenting it. Whoever wrote it the first time. Maybe that should be you can't edit that. So yeah, there's there's many things that could probably prevent that from happening. Yeah,

Augustus Yuan
like I respect management that is able to like kind of take a step back and look and see, hey, that's like, this is a wow, you deleted the production database, all your fault. Like you're just missing the entire point.

Brian Holt
All the other people that should have been fired.

Ryan Burgess
Not the guy on his first day.

Derrick Showers
He didn't have any experience. Cheers.

Ryan Burgess
All right, next question. This is the last question. Terran My name is Chandra beam. Or you can call me Terran, because I'm tearing it up. Yeah, no, cheesy, bad joke. I'm calling from Vancouver, Canada. And right now, I guess you could call me a full stack web developer. But I'm leaning more to the front end. And I'm also a university student. My question is, as HTTP two becomes more of a thing, and more prevalent in industry? Do you guys think things like Webpack and gulp and grunt are kind of like your bumpers and tasks, runners will become kind of obsolete?

Jem Young
No, they will not become obsolete because most of what our gulp tasks do now aren't necessarily related to actually shipping code out. It'll be like logging, and it does some minifying, things like that. But no, tasks run bundlers as far as bundling your entire code into one package and shipping it out. I think a little bit yes, we'll do more code splitting in the future isn't like these are static assets. These are assets that are gonna change in the future. But now bundlers are here to say task runners are definitely here to say because they do a lot more than just deploying code.

Augustus Yuan
Or can we can we give a quick summary? Why HTTP two, you know, like, I'll just be honest, I'm Wikipedia that it right now like that. That would be awesome.

Brian Holt
Old man, Jem summary, please.

Jem Young
The fast and quick summary Is he one is so furious, Fast and Furious summary for Terry's hairnet up is HB. One is one file one connection. HP two is multiple files or multiple files, multiple connections, but it's actually just one connection. So it's one persistent connection. But it's better to think of it like a WebSocket. It's not a WebSocket. But think of it like a website where you can send multiple things down the same pipe without reopening that connection. The most expensive part of any connection is actually not the download. It's the handshaking. And if you eliminate that, that's what HPT does. It significantly decreases network resources and speeds up your site,

Stacy London
like a single high five instead of multiple handshakes.

Brian Holt
So I think our friend Taryn turn it up, Terry, is making the faulty assumption that we as humans are capable of writing optimized code and that we want to and I think that's those are both pretty faulty assumptions. They won't be bundling it in the same way. But for example, despite the fact it will be cheaper to download assets, because there'll be an open connection, it's still not free, right. So when you download that first package, you want to get down everything you need for that first download you want to do, you don't want to do multiple handshakes if you don't have to. And so there's a bunch of things that basically something like web pack or roller can kind of analyze our dependency graph, analyze what we're doing upfront, build the optimized package to have that first page load, and then have, you know, multiple other packages that are optimized for other payloads. But it'll be split differently, but it'll still be split, it'll still be minified, it'll still have all these different other things, well, it actually won't be minified. Now I'm thinking about but regardless, nonetheless, what point stands,

Mars Jullian
I think, also, you need to consider sort of what clients you're catering to, because not all of them will support HTTP, two out of the gate. And I think over time, we'll be able, we can use, you know, new tools that come out more and more, but at the same time, we'll kind of have I mean, Franken says not quite the right word, but no new tools come out will be come part of the toolkit, not the single tool that solves like the single tool to solve the mall. We're catering to a lot of different people, different devices, different types of browsers on all versions, you know, it's, it's a whole crazy world out there, when you actually look at what different browsers people are using.

Ryan Burgess
It's kind of like when we talk about going to ies next, it's like, we are always going to support these old browsers. And you're going to need something like Babel to really help transpile that there's going

Brian Holt
to reach some critical point though, where enough clients that of your particular, like product, are going to support HTTP two, that you're basically going to say 1.1 Still gonna work. It's just going to be a degraded experience. And I think that's at someday at some point that that's going to be

Ryan Anklam
okay. I think Bundler is they're necessary, and they're great, and they do a lot of work. But I also think they are probably the worst part of being a front end engineer in this point in time, you know, call me an old fogy, old fogy. But I missed the days where you could just, you know, throw in a script tag, write some javascript, save and refresh the page. I mean, that was the essence. And what drew me to being a front end engineer in the first place. Now, you know, we have a Netflix sometimes we do take homes and I see take homes that you can tell the person spent three of the four hours just setting up this fucking bundling system and gulp and grunt and Webpack and all this shit. And they didn't write any JavaScript, they wrote maybe 60 lines of JavaScript, you know? Yeah, that's, I mean, I just want to get back to focusing on Well, I don't want to get back I think, front engineers these days, spend way too much time working on build systems and figuring out build systems when we should really should be just focusing on writing really good JavaScript.

Ryan Burgess
All right. Well, as we wrap up today's episode, we like to share pics of things that we like or have found interesting. Let's go around the table and share pics for today. Maurice, you're going to start it off.

Mars Jullian
Well, I'm first Yeah. Oh, so okay, I love food. And I love to work out. So I don't know if anyone has tried these yet. But Clif Bar has these new nut butter filled bars. They're amazing. They have a chocolate peanut butter one just drives me crazy. It's great. And the second one is, there's an app called Eye shows. And I watch a lot of TV. And I'm kind of a type A personality. So this thing's married. This is the two. And I can keep track of what I've watched. And what I haven't watched yet. This is great. Whenever asked someone asked, is there a new episode of x? I can just go and be like, Oh, yes, there is we haven't watched it yet. So if you're looking for something to keep track of all the TV you need to watch because who doesn't want to track their TV watching? Download the app? Awesome.

Ryan Burgess
Stacey, what do you have?

Stacy London
So two picks, none of them are tech related. Because I was just on vacation visiting friends in Portland and I turned all the tech off. So my first pick is a restaurant in Portland called Bamboo. And they do so she enrolls and I had the best vegetarian roll event in my entire life called the Green Machine. So if you're in Portland, and you're vegetarian, anyone who gets sushi should go there. The second one is song by Trenton boiler. I'm pretty sure I always say that wrong. It's called hands down it features Jenny Lee by she's a basis for more paint, which is an old lady, man. That's really great paints. Awesome. So that song phenomenal to great artists coming together.

Derrick Showers
Great. Jem, what

Jem Young
do you have? My first pick is a blog post by Lynn Clark of Mozilla, who did a crash course in memory management by Lynn is brilliant. But the best thing about articles that she writes are their cartoon based so it makes it really accessible. And something like memory management is probably something most JavaScript engineers never worry about. Because it's garbage collected language. But as we see the rise of web assembly, which we will, it's good to know what people are talking about when they're talking C versus Java, things like that. And it's an excellent blog posts, and she has a series of them and they're all very, very useful. So I recommend reading it and trying to get ahead of the curve as far as understanding reading memory management JavaScript. My next pick is actually Netflix originals called discovery. I originally wasn't going to watch it because I thought it's depressing. It's topics a bit taboo, it's about suicide and prove afterlife, things like that. It's actually a fantastic sci fi film like really, really engaging and intertwined with all that it's a love story. And it's it was like one of the best films I've seen a long time. And it's something I probably wouldn't have watched unless I was really bored. And I was really bored. So

Derrick Showers
dare, I have two picks as well and believe it or not, after WC, which is a couple of weeks ago, and neither of them are apple, so I just figured I'd awesome. I like to but I'm gonna, you know, do something a little bit crazy. The first one is a book I just finished reading called the obesity code by Jason Fung. It's actually really good. It's not maybe claims about weight loss. But it's I think it's it makes some really good points about just the science of like, food and like what we eat and processed food and why it's so bad for you and how there's sugar in absolute everything you make some really good points on like how we have gotten to the point where we are now and how big companies have influenced our diet. So I just think it makes a lot. I just thought it was one of the best books I've read a long time. So highly recommend it. And the other one I knew Ryan, I think picked up before in a previous episode, but I'm gonna pick it again because I like it headspace. So I actually just finished day 68 in a row. So 68 Day streak, which I'm proud of myself, I'm going to really hate myself when I forget to do it for a day and ruin my streak. But I you know, especially being in some of the Southern we're just talking about in this episode with constantly comparing yourself to other to others. And just being in a state of like fast paced environment and learning stuff all the time. Anxiety I think happens to a lot of us and I definitely struggle for from it and I think has basis, a really good way to just take time for yourself. If you don't get anything out of it. It's 10 minutes just to like sit and take time to yourself every day. So I highly recommend trying it out.

Jem Young
A second epic, excellent app. I only made it today five, because that's not short of time spent. 60 That's impressive. He

Ryan Burgess
even did it through vacation too.

Jem Young
Yeah, that's Wow.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. Yeah, that would be especially because

Derrick Showers
meditation is still kind of like faux pas with a lot of like, you know, so like, I went to Orlando. There's a lot of friends in Orlando. And it's like, I feel like they think of me, kind of like, oh, you're that hippy California that does meditation. So I did kind of like find my own way just to work it in my own. did. I hidden the corner somewhere.

Mars Jullian
What time of day do you normally do it like to start the day with it? Yeah, I

Derrick Showers
usually try to get in a routine by starting Oh, yeah.

Ryan Burgess
Nice. I guess this word? Yeah. Yeah. So

Augustus Yuan
I have two picks. One is just this generic, actually pretty generic front end guide from buy grab. And I just like read through it. I thought it was like pretty similar to what we do at Evernote. And it was like a pretty good like, I don't know, when I was reading it. I was like, Oh, wow. Like, if I hit my head and forgot a lot of things like I read this, I'd feel like I'd be up to speed. So I thought I thought it was a pretty good front end masters also has like a really good guide. So yeah, that's my pick. And another pick I have is Steam Summer Sale. I don't know if anyone plays video games. But you know, July 5, is bought all these games and yeah, just playing a lot. So

Jem Young
fun fact, there's like some stat from steam. And it's like, we buy all these games. You're like well play eventually. But it's like 65% of games.

Augustus Yuan
Oh, yeah, totally. I don't think I'm gonna play some of the games I bought but I was just like, like, it's two bucks.

Ryan Burgess
Brian, what do you have? So

Brian Holt
I have a couple picks. The first one is bing.com research engine where you paid to say that my next pick is one Nope. That's not what I'm picking Jesus Christ. My first one is that I got my first tattoo, or I'm getting my first tattoo rather, which led to a hilarious tweet. Someone superimposing my tattoo on an O'Reilly book cover. So her name is Reina. She doesn't list her last name. But anyway, on Instagram, she is Rex underscore t t t. And she's a phenomenal artist. She does tattoos and Berkeley, modern electric. And the other one is super niche. It's only for the Bay Area really. But it's my dog walker and she's phenomenal. She's gonna win best to the bay. So I feel justified in saying that. She's pretty good. The name of his city pups SF. You should look I'm on Facebook because she post picture of my dog every day. And she's adorable. She's a little white Havanese that you see on there.

Ryan Burgess
Luna is very cute dog. She's

Brian Holt
a good dog. Luna. Oh, man,

Ryan Burgess
you're missing it. Why

Stacy London
don't we have a dog Play Day?

Ryan Burgess
I like this. Okay, I don't have a dog, man. Get one.

Brian Holt
You can bring us easy.

Ryan Burgess
She's not a dog. But she's bigger than my dog. True. Ryan, what do you have for us?

Ryan Anklam
My first pick is a book called children of time, and it's a sci fi book set in the distant future. Earth is kind of become inhabitable a long, long time ago and they sent this ship out in space with about 500,000 people I think to Reese re colonize a planet Then the fire fire distance. And yeah, that's the gist of it. And a lot of other interesting things happen a planet becomes inhabited by smart spiders and ants. And that gets pretty crazy. But it's really good book is the best sci fi book I've read in a while, so highly recommend that. And I only had one pick this week, but then Mars has inspired me to for my second pick, and that is Darigold old fashioned chocolate milk. There's nothing better in my book after a long hard run or a hard workout, then a big glass of ice cold chocolate milk. And this is by far the best that I've had. So if you're in exercise, definitely try a big glass after a

Jem Young
workout sponsored by Derek.

Ryan Anklam
We're not but if Derek wants to send me some cartons of chocolate milk.

Ryan Burgess
Alright, so for my picks, I have to one I think apply to most of our listeners. If you listen to podcasts, there's this app that's called breaker app. It's a new podcast app that looks really promising. Unfortunately, it's only for iOS. But what I really like about it is it's finally an app that allows you to follow other people and see what they're listening to. And you can like episodes, you can comment on episodes. To me, it's actually looking pretty promising that I hope more people start using it because that will be an interesting way for you to subscribe to new podcasts and kind of discover new ones. So you can also connect with me on there too. I have signed up and started using it. My username is just Ryan Burgess. hope more people are using it because I'd like to see it grow. And hopefully there's an Android app soon. That's that would be really good. I know gem shaking his head. Most of the world is Android. My second pick is called Phone soap.

Brian Holt
It's a huge company.

Ryan Burgess
Is it really? Oh, that's very cool.

Brian Holt
Lunch, my friends work for them. Oh, so

Ryan Burgess
it's a device that helps clean your dirty ass phones. We all use our phones all the time and they're so disgusting. They're covered in bacteria. And this device uses UV rays to clean your phone it kills bacteria can just drop your phone in this like little box device and you can even charge your phone at the same time it only it takes like 10 minutes for it to run. And it's supposed to kill the majority of all bacteria off your phone. I did buy one I've been using it. Of course I can't really test if it's actually working. I'm just feeling a little cleaner using my phone now because of it. Alright, thank you all for listening today's episode, make sure to follow us on Twitter and Instagram at front end age. You can also find us on Facebook. Any last words we have an Instagram. We do have an Instagram accounts. Yeah, this is a good experience.