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Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a brand new episode of the front end happy hour podcast. In this episode we will be talking about internships and how to best leverage an internship and also how other engineers can help interns to grow. We have a special guest Moira joining us more can you give us a brief introduction of who you are, what you do and what your favorite happier beverages?

Moira Huang
Hi, thank you so much for having me. First of all, I am a junior at UC Berkeley studying computer science. And so I guess on the topic of internships, I interned at PayPal last year and I'm very much in the middle of finding my internship for this next summer. And my favorite happy hour beverage is currently hot tea because I'm slightly Thick

Ryan Burgess
right on. Let's go around the table and give introductions for today's panelists. Ryan, you want to start off? Sure. I'm Brian anklam. I'm a software engineer at Netflix.

Mars Jullian
Hi, Mars Jullian. I'm also a software engineer at Netflix.

Augustus Yuan
I'm an associate. I'm a front end engineer at Evernote.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm a software engineering manager at Netflix. In each episode of the front end, happier podcast, we like to choose a keyword that if it's mentioned at all, we will all take a drink. What did we decide today's keyword is experience experience. So from now on, if anyone says the word experience, we will all take a drink. All right, well, let's get started. First off, I want to know who's actually done an internship. And how was it What was it like?

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, I actually done two I interned at work day when I was a junior and then actually right after college, I didn't feel like completely ready for a full time yet. So I interned at Evernote and then I converted to full time,

Ryan Anklam
right on. I think I actually started in the web. When it was so early, there probably was no web development internship. This was literally in the forefront of web development. Yeah, you're probably right. Mars. Yeah, I

Mars Jullian
mean, I did well, I did a couple internships, but only the one that I did right before senior year was actually computer science related. Um, and it was with a small startup in New York City. So that was an interesting experience. Oh,

All
cheers. Cheers.

Mars Jullian
And I would say I learned a lot. I you know, I was kind of left to my own devices. And there's a lot of things that you need to pick up in an internship. And I think also specific to my particular school program was that there was a lot of actual skills that I could apply towards a full time job later, whereas a lot of the stuff I was learning in school was more theory oriented, like networking oriented. And I really found that front end development was something I wanted to do through my internship because it was just kind of off the beaten track of what the curriculum at school was presenting us.

Ryan Burgess
For me. I did a internship right after school as well. It's kind of part of actually graduating was working. And to me, I think it was a two, three Maybe four month internship and I learned so much more there than I ever did in school it was, well, it's probably not true is like I learned all the skills that I needed to have. But then actually learning how to apply it. That was the big thing is being in the workforce and saying, Oh, this is how we're actually building something is going to get shipped to a client.

Moira Huang
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Because in school, we definitely learn a lot of theory and just like how to think and approach a lot of problems. But that was definitely something I realized this summer is that like, I sat down in front of this web app, and was like, I have no clue how to build any of this. Thanks to the handy tools of Google and like my manager, and like a lot of resources that you get to experience when you're an actual work environment. That's when you gain this Cheers. Oh, no,

Mars Jullian
no, don't be sorry. That's the point of the keyword. But

Moira Huang
yeah, I think having that very real world application makes a really big difference because your schools education in terms of how you think in framing how you approach problems is really important. But then being able to understand the current state of the industry and then understanding how to apply what you've learned in school to that is a whole nother story that you definitely need that experience. Oh, my gosh.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. Let her have that. Yeah, I think the interesting thing, too, is, you're oftentimes in school, even if you're building something, you're starting with fresh code, but I'm sure you might have even experienced this at PayPal is you're thrown into a code base that already exists. Did I say experience?

Augustus Yuan
Cheers. We're gonna have fun tonight. Yeah, I

Mars Jullian
mean, I think that's a really good point too, because in an internship, I feel like in school, sometimes the problems are so self encapsulated that you're kind of working in a vacuum in a sense. And then when you get into an internship, you begin to understand how to solve problems that have you know, solutions that are kind of going to live beyond you, in a sense, because when you leave the company that code lives on, and also having to write code that doesn't just play well with other code but also plays well with other people. And that's not something that you really do a lot in school because I mean it the curriculum is very tailored and very bite sized, or it tends to be

Ryan Burgess
it's more theoretical at that point. And this is more applied because you're actually doing something with it.

Mars Jullian
Right? I think there's an upside to it at the same time, though, because in school often it's, you know, this is my work. I'm the only one who worked on it, but an internship you have a whole community of support around you to, you know, everyone's invested in in the company and your skills that you're learning. Was that the key? The key word again, and the skills that you're learning, so you have a little bit, you've got an, you know, a nice support system, I feel like

Moira Huang
Yeah, I think that's a really good point in that, even in school, like a lot of our projects are either by yourself or with one other person. And obviously, their support in terms of the TA is and like the core staff and everything, but it's a whole different story to have a whole codebase that's really run by entire company and to have that exposure to know what it's like to go and ask for help from like someone on a completely completely different team and just being able to work with other people and That sense is also a really good point. Because, for example, when my partner and I work on a project, and we're using Git, it's very simple, like back and forth. And it's, you know, we only have this concept of this larger working within this larger codebase. But then when you as soon as you enter a company, you have to learn good, good practices, which were, you know, a concept and very important, and I think that's also just something that you also have to get you to sue for sure.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, actually, I was also gonna say something similar. It was because of my internships that I really, like, saw the value in get, like, when I thought when we were in school, it really is like working in a vacuum. Like when you make a change, like, oh, you're gonna have a merge conflict with me like, oh, I'll merge mine first, don't worry. But then when you're actually working, you know, people can be merging stuff. And you have to like figure out like, oh, what's going on? And like, Okay, I have a merge probably. It's,

Ryan Burgess
I mean, I laughing here, it's all saying this in my internship, it was still like an FTP server. So there was a little coordination of like, Hey, I'm gonna just check this file out, and all update it and then you update it. So it's like There was that coordination even in my internship. So, yeah, that's because it was a long time ago.

Ryan Anklam
My version control when I first started was naming files. Yes. Or one and 2001 1012

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, and like the version one v one one v 112. Our internship ships helpful for software engineering in general

Augustus Yuan
from so I guess there's two standpoints. One is like for the engineers at the company, why is it valuable to have internships or like interns and for interns? Like why is it valuable to take internship? Yeah, because it goes both ways. It definitely does. And honestly, I, I just want to speak from like software engineering from taking on interns. I think mentoring is a great way to grow. Like you learn so much by mentoring someone and being able, there are a lot of things I felt I understood. But then when my intern came and said, Oh, hey, can you explain this a little more in depth? I would be like, Oh, yeah, it's this is like, oh, then what about this and it's like, oh, And it really like challenges you to like really understand like the full like understanding. So,

Ryan Burgess
yeah, I mean teaching someone is actually a really hard thing to do. But it's also a good way to learn to is like, you've probably like you said, you're like, Oh, I kind of understand or I know how to do this thing. But now I have to explain it right. And it actually allows you to understand it even more in depth, which is really cool, too.

Mars Jullian
I think that really depends on the company as well. Like I agree, mentorship is really important. But it can be quite tough when you're in a company that doesn't support that. And I think that's, I mean, that's part of finding a job like if you have to go into it, knowing that and my fully in support of it, but sometimes, not everyone gives the mentoring in the intern, the intern there do and they really should, because this is kind of the next maybe it sounds a little lofty. It's the next generation of software engineers. And while you're mentoring, you're also potentially you know, you could be kind of grooming a new hire someone who could be a full stack engineer later and I mean, beyond the obvious they also just come in and provide a really, really fresh perspective to not only the problems You're working on but to the industry in general. Yeah, like

Moira Huang
on that last note, I have asked a lot of people like why do different companies put so much money into interns? Because truthfully, like, we're not going to do nearly the same amount of work as, you know, a full time engineer. And the response that I get back a lot of times that company sees this as an investment into like, potential future talent. But then on that note, I guess a question that I would have is like, how do companies distinguish how much like how much resources should they put into their insurance and their programs? Because it definitely varies. And I've seen, you know, like very large companies that are able to take on literally thousands of interns, and then medium sized companies that can choose like not taking turns at all. And then small companies that like are willing to devote a lot of resources into the insurance so kind of like maybe based off of your different experiences, what dictates a company and their choice in their intern program.

Ryan Burgess
I think it really just depends because you're right, I've seen like large companies do it. I've seen small, I've seen all ends of it, have done it or not done it and I think it's just really How much they value and what they see the investment is worth. But it is an investment because I think a good internship has to have the right setup for it. And you can't just say like, yeah, we'll just take on some internships, I think that's a poor way to do it, it's you'll learn quickly that it is not going to work well, for the engineers on the team. Also the intern or interns, it's not going to be great unless you have the right people in place. Even recruiting teams have to be involved in this. Like, it's not just you need to be very organized and find the right interns that want to be at the company, but also make sure that they're set up for success, as well as the engineers helping with the mentoring side is like they're set up to help the intern but also that it's not a huge tax on them and that it's not, you know, not beneficial to them at all, either. So I don't know what the Great answer is for that. But I think it's really just on the company deciding to invest in it or not. Yeah,

Augustus Yuan
actually, I guess speaking from Evernote. Yeah, not to brag, but we have Good experience. You do have a hiring. Yeah, hiring some Oh, thank you Cheers. Sure. But yeah, actually, if historically, I think for Evernote, we had a lot of interns that have come on full time and they've been excellent, like people to work with. So it perhaps we're fortunate that our intern program did so well. But I think a lot of it is also just the culture of the company. I think part, I don't know, part of Evernote is we do value like education. Because a lot of people who use Evernote or like students in the education space is something that we really care about. So I think that's another part of it, too. I think

Mars Jullian
also the company that I was at previously on ad roll, they didn't have an internship program when I started and one of the things that ended up being successful and I mean, we really, I mean, we enjoyed it at the time and they continue to enjoy the successes is starting out small especially when you're just introducing an internship program, because it is a really large commitment, but it can be quite rewarding, but you really should start out small to tune kind of the process. It does require quite a bit of structure. So I think that companies Well, I don't know the history behind a lot of companies, but at least there we found success in starting out small and growing it into something bigger and, you know, figuring out what are the sort of the right sources for internships? Like, how do you recruit for interns? What's the structure that you put in place for them? How do you celebrate their successes and kind of how do you deal with the failures as well, and kind of understanding that it's all part of this longer term, you know, talent pool that you're generating for all of these companies?

Ryan Burgess
I think it's a learning experience on both ends, like talking about like having interns learn, but it's also like the company's learning how how to best do this and like set everyone up for success. And I think, like I like what you said is ad roll started off like with a smaller investment in the sense that it's like, Don't go too big, because we need to figure out how this works for us. And we can only take on so much to figure out how that works, and then start investing more and more in it. That's a good idea. before you're even at the company. How does an intern find a job? Like how do you go about applying for it? Is the application different than a full time job? Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Augustus Yuan
Well to hear I were very

Moira Huang
like in the midst of this, and I think perfect timing on this one. Yeah, I think that's like On that note, like, timing also makes such a big difference. Like, especially now because I think the way that internships have kind of evolved over the last few years, it's also really interesting and that, like, everything is like you have to start early, you have to be very proactive, and it's a very involved process. So I mean, like, I'm, like, definitely biased from like my perspective and from like a larger school perspective, but at least in my experience, like everyone that I know, tries to start very, like August, pretty much. And then for Berkeley, for example, we're fortunate enough to have a lot of career fairs but like, with that comes like very large crowds. And so a lot of companies will be there with their full like University recruiting teams, and people go with the resumes and try to talk but it's also just really hard to get FaceTime because there's just so many people there and it's crowded and it's stuffing, you're in the gym, and it's just like an unpleasant process like, that's one way that people will try to get, get the resumes even seen and then another way through online portals, so like a lot of companies just have portals but then like, the bad part about that is just a lot of times it feels like you're sending your resume to this black hole and you don't get a response necessarily. And then there's also been a lot of like other different smaller ways for example, like our school hosts a lot of tech talks. So those are also used as a form of recruiting but also with that comes like really large crowds, especially like early on in the recruiting season. And that also kind of like sucks the fun out of it because you can go and like be really excited to like meet a company and like really want to learn a lot and then everyone's just there like trying to hand in their resumes. So I think like, in terms of like applying for internships right now, it's it's definitely a really difficult process and there's a lot of work I think that could be done from like many different parties involved to get it to be more streamlined because it's just really hard. I think for a lot of people to feel like they will even get the resume seen and then like once you get the resume seen like it's a whole nother story in terms of like the technical interviews behavioral phone screens. And just like, there's a lot of process behind it. And I think that, for better and for worse, like there's so much interest in the tech industry right now, and people all want to get involved. But this means that there's a lot of numbers and from the recruiters and there's a lot of people that have to look at, and from the like, applicants pool like there's a lot of people that they want to apply to and get seen by so i don't i don't know what the solution is. But the story is that applying is a lot of work. And like people say it's like equivalent, another course load, like jokingly but also not jokingly, because when you're in the midst of it, you really just like have to commit to it and like you have to take time to do interview prep, you have to like take time to take the interviews, like it's a whole whole mess. I mean,

Ryan Burgess
it's like finding a job like yeah, literally what you're doing. And yeah, I don't think there's an answer, like the one one solution to it. But I think it's like, how do you stand out like you were just saying is like people are applying, they're going to these job fairs. You're not just one person talking to him. There's a bunch of people, it's talking to this company. And so you have to learn how to sell yourself. Cuz that's important, and then also how to stand out and be memorable or like having that resume stand out. One thing I would say like looking at resumes sometimes is like, what always drives me nuts is when someone gives me like an eight page resume. I'm like, uh, yeah, I have about like, you know, yeah, like, I just need, like, really, like one page should be that is Yeah, like, I'm not going to be reading much more than that. So if you can stand out in that first page, like, that's really important.

Ryan Anklam
How important do you think it is for someone looking for an internship to have a strong GitHub page where they contribute to a lot of open source projects, or have their own projects out there? Is that really important these days are like, what do you how do you feel about that? I think

Moira Huang
that's an interesting question. Because Truthfully, I don't know how many recruiters actually can even take the time to like, check an individual Git repo like maybe later down in the process, if you're, you know, like further in and you're getting to the final rounds, and they can actually take that time to look at you and like really invest in you personally. But right now, like it's even an issue of like having a resume seen and like you Even like getting dropped into their piles like, I think they're like people have mentioned like, if you do put a Git repo out there, like it is good to have it, like, updated and like to see that you're proactive. But I think that's for like later on in the process of anything at all. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
I think it's like a nice to have. But yeah, I would worry too much of spending too much effort. And I don't think it's a knock against you either for not having it. You know, even when people apply for like a full time engineering role. There's some people that just don't have open source work or GitHub, like accounts that are active. That doesn't mean they're not good engineers, like I would never look at them be like, Oh, we can't hire them. They've never done any open source work. Unless I'm hiring for someone who knows open source really, really well. Maybe I would, that might be a factor. But if it's for an engineering role like that doesn't mean that you have to be active in the community and have that out there. I've actually stopped looking at people's GitHub when we hire people, when we have people going for technical interviews or text greens, I don't even look at GitHub or ever really even look at their resume these days. I just want to like interact with them and talk to them and see how they code. Actually, that's a big one for me too, is I don't like to look into the resume too much, because I don't want something to bias me like the school or a companies they've worked at previously. So maybe not for internship, but if they've gone to certain school, or they've got worked at the Googles, or Facebook's or whatever, and you're like, oh, they're gonna be great. And it's like, well, maybe I mean, you you see all those things. It's hard to ignore it. But it's like, I'd rather get to talking with someone to understand like, Okay, well, at company you did this or at school, like, what were some of the things you've done and challenges. And then like asking one or two questions, I can ask more and more questions to find out more about someone versus like running it on a piece of paper. Yeah, it's

Moira Huang
really interesting that you say that, when you hire you try to stay away from looking at those things, because maybe it's just like from the student perspective, but we kind of had this like, joke almost where it's like a chicken and egg problem where it's like They want you to have internship experience to get an internship. And like, it's kind of this issue for a lot of us where it's like, especially when you're trying to get the first one, like, how do you even get your like foot in the door? And like, a lot of people have told me that like, having had a big name on their resume like that helps them get reads. really well. Yeah. And like, it's just hard because it's like, so many people that I know are very talented and just like don't happen to have that label and just like don't even get that first green. And so it's it. I don't know what the solution is either.

Ryan Burgess
No, I think even harder is like the internship is one thing. It's like less of, it's a little bit less of a bar to get in the door on the internship. It's getting that first job is even harder. I think, to me, that is one of the hardest things once you have that you have a year experience and you've worked at company doesn't even matter which company people are like, Oh great, you have experience. It's getting that experience, which actually leads me to like think that internships are really great because you actually are getting and complete went out. I have real world experience. Oh man, that was like three times. ours. He just looked at me and I'm like, yeah, cheers.

Augustus Yuan
Actually, I, I'm pretty passionate about this topic, because when I was actually I tried to start really early. So I didn't actually get into my CS program. And so it was very difficult for me to like, even kind of get in. So actually, I started in sophomore year, going to career fairs, and I had like, literally nothing on my resume. And I remember, like, vividly this one recruiter came to me it was like, I gotta be honest with you, you got nothing. You got absolutely nothing that like we need and he's like, you got to like, set yourself apart. And he gave me like this kind of like real talk moment. And at the time, I was like, really pissed. But looking back, it really helped me and how I got my first internship that really separated me was I went to hackathon so that I decided one way to kind of separate yourself. It's really it but it is really tough. I love how you're like really real about the situation because it is really tough, but kind of Going to what Ryan was mentioning, like it's so hard to get your first job without experience. And so I really, really want to encourage any students that are like listening, like try to get an internship as like early as possible like, apply as early as you can get the feedback and just like just keep applying like, just apply as much as you can and try to get that internship because you learn so much from it and it opens so many more doors like after my first internship, so many more recruiters were looking at my resume,

Moira Huang
just like even having experience you can talk about makes such a big difference when you're like in that line at the career fair. And like the recruiter seen, like 100 people like or even if you haven't had a prior internship if you have like a project that you can point to and talk in depth about it and show that you have really worked on it and really know the nuances of that. I think that makes a big difference or even an internship which isn't like a known company at all. But you can say like, I worked on this project, I made it my own and I was able to gain XYZ experience from it. That just like is so much more than just having nothing to say at all. And so you For people who don't have an internship experience, like there's, you know, projects you can do and like different things that you can do to like even demonstrate that you're very proactive and like, interested in getting the experience,

Ryan Burgess
even if it's like recreating a product, I recreated Netflix or something like that. And one of the challenges of like doing that I'm already interested just in the fact of being able to talk to something that someone's created.

Mars Jullian
I think also just being able to talk about some of the projects that you've worked on in a way that kind of appeals to this whole process is pretty important as well, because it demonstrates that you understand the work that you're doing in the larger context of what it means to be a software engineer. So sometimes even just being able to talk about what you're working on and highlighting the things that will be appealing can be pretty important as well. I think

Ryan Anklam
one thing I was thinking is we're talking about this, we're all talking about the positives and how great internships can be. But what kind of advice would you give to someone that's in an internship that's actually not getting anything out of it and that being mentored or it's a negative experience? You know, how can someone move on from an internship and put themselves

Ryan Burgess
in a better place on campus? this episode of the podcast we've said quit, right? I mean, maybe that is like honestly the solution. But that could be really difficult to is depending you're like, how many months is a typical internship?

Moira Huang
It's three months. So like, I have, like, I have heard, like through the grapevine of like people who have quit, but like, even then it's like the total duration. It's like not that long. Like, I would say, like, I guess like, based off of my experience, and just like from the people that I've talked to, a lot of people who have had bad experiences will usually stick it out just because it's like, summer short, and like they already have, you know, their housing setup. They're at least getting paid for it. But then I think for a lot of people, it definitely helps to fuel the fire of understanding what they are looking for in their next internship or their next job experience. Because a lot of people for example, know, like, Oh, I really want to work on something that's now going to be much more customer facing and like we'll get pushed out and like, stuff like that. So it's like, a lot of people are able to take that and like productively better understand what they are looking for, even if it's a really bad experience.

Mars Jullian
Well, that into Speak to the chicken and egg problem as well as experiences experience that cheers and cheers. But I know that it can be tough and sometimes demoralizing being in, you know, a 12 week internship and you don't have, you know much to do. And you're not getting a lot of mentorship as well. But at the same time, it really is. It's tough. You can't switch internships in the middle of the summer as well. And it really will be something that you can talk about later, and at least one will see that you have been working, you know, as an intern somewhere, I don't know.

Ryan Burgess
I think at that point, too, is like three months hearing that is like sometimes it's also hard to know, in the first like week or two Do you know it's really bad or not, maybe not really, really bad if that's the case, but usually a three month or duration is not the end of the world. My advice there would be is try and seek out other opportunities. Like if it's a bad manager or a bad team that you're on, look for other opportunities to maybe sync up with other people at lunch, find out what they're doing, get the most out of it. That's what you're there to do is learn and get the most started.

Moira Huang
Yeah, I mean, I guess this is like kind of a shout out to like one of my friends if he's listening, like he'll know what I'm talking about. But he had a really bad experience. But like, at the very least, he told me that he was able to meet really cool people through it. And like being able to realize that work is not only defined by the literal code that you're writing, but also the people that you get to meet. And there are also other people that throughout my summer that you know, didn't love the project that they're working on. But then like, at the end, like, or like throughout the entire summer, they would like meet up with a lot of other people and get a lot of mentorship from other teams, or they would get connected with other things that they're more interested in. And just like being able to be in that work environment and get exposure. And then also though, like being very conscious, you have to be very proactive about it and actively seek those out. If you recognize that you're unhappy with your current situation is like definitely a skill that people have to, I think learn to develop because that does end up being very important. I'm guessing in like full time where

Ryan Burgess
Oh, yeah.

Moira Huang
So hypothetical,

Ryan Burgess
totally is true. And I think it's really like seeking out those opportunities to make the best of it. And And my opinion on that is like, if it doesn't get better and like you're continuing to try, at some point, you're done, you quit and like that's okay. Beyond three months is not that long. So I like what you said about the connections though I think that's super important. A lot of it is just like networking and talking to people is so important that can help you so much more. It's makes you stand out because now you have this connection, where you've like, talked to Augustus, and you're like, Hey, you have a great internship at at Evernote. Are you guys hiring? And like he's like, yeah, yeah, like, let's talk about that. And it may go nowhere, but at least you now Are you already have your foot in the door because you've met him or talk to him about that.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, I want I really want to echo the networking part, you know, and to be on and to be honest, in some ways, having an internship that you realize you don't like, is a really nice benefit. That is like a great learning experience to realize what you don't like, because, you know, when you get a full time job, and you realize that it's a little a little more awkward in some ways, right? So, but yeah, definitely, I think I want to echo a lot of that advice because I've had a lot of friends who've also unfortunately had like, not as great internship experiences. And what they did is they were pretty vocal with their like managers or their mentors who were doing that and they, and most of the time, they will try to find a way to like make it work for you like the company. On one hand, they're interested in you doing good work for them, but they're also like interested in you like having a good learning experience because you kind of reflect their internship experience. Cheers.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, even to the networking point is more like how are you even talking with us right now is you came up to us at a talk at Netflix and came and talked with us. So I give you credit for actually coming and talking to us as well. Being on your own doing that is not easy, but it's like that's a great way we had some great conversations and that to me is like super powerful.

Moira Huang
Yeah, my friends actually they give me a lot of shit. They're like, I feel like half the time you're at pay while you were like off in other companies like talking to other people. And like by I feel like like we've been saying, like networking is such a big part of it, because I had this opportunity to be really in this work environment and to really get to understand what the industry is. And I think, also on that note, like, I've also had other friends who like through their networking have opened doors in ways that like they never would have if they just sat at their desk and like, continue to keep their head down. And I think, also just like, getting the chance to meet so many different people who experienced so many different things is such a powerful experience because like, I might not ever go into systems but like, it'd be really cool to get to talk to an engineer who was really into that and is really passionate about that. And those are really awesome ways, I think, for people to get exposure and even understand if there's something that they might have never thought about but might be remotely interested in. Like it's just a good way to get exposure. I think, especially when you're young at that

Ryan Burgess
point. You're learning what what do I want to do? Yeah, I have this CS degree, but like, even how Mars is like, yeah, I started like, spending more time on the front end and was like, This is what I want to do. It's a lot of gigs. exploring all the different options that are out there to really understand like, what is it I want to do? Is it like full stack? Is it back end? Is it front end? Is it systems that who knows machine learning that's like hot keyword right now we talked about one getting a company to hire you. What happens if you have multiple options? This this does happen, where you have offers from multiple companies. How do you choose that? Like what goes through your heads? If you were to choose? What are you thinking about what is like the most important to think about for that company, for your internship?

Mars Jullian
I think this is not something I knew when I was first looking for internships, but something that I would say I would recommend now having been on the other side, someone who is doing the mentoring is to really ask the company, what the structure will be for your internship, what are the types of projects that you're going to be working on? Like really what is your 12 weeks going to look like? And I think that in having those conversations you'll undergo or I would hope that you could understand from the company, what the meant level of magic. Was will be as well in the support because the more it doesn't need to be super structured and very rigorous, but knowing that they at least have a plan for you means that it's probably more likely you're going to be a better experience at another company that's just like, Oh, we have interns, we'll figure out how to deal with them when they get here, which can happen as well. You know, some companies will just, you know, deal deal with it as it happens. So that was that's something I would say just from having been on on the side of it.

Augustus Yuan
I will I will say I've experienced that I've had two internships that were very different experiences and it definitely Wow, I've been so many experiences.

Ryan Burgess
I believe Mars. I think she chose this one. Yeah. I

Moira Huang
when you when you said that you want to experience this as the word I was like, I'm not sure if that is it. I

Mars Jullian
was kind of gunning for you. I didn't realize

Ryan Burgess
that we need to get a thesaurus, opportunities, opportunities. Go ahead. I got this with your opportunities.

Augustus Yuan
opportunities that I've had, it really does play a huge difference with a well very well planned internship versus one that's which, in some ways I would still would say is more accurate to what a full time would experience but as an intern, you're not really looking necessarily.

Ryan Burgess
Did I say it? I think there's opportunities

Augustus Yuan
that. Yeah, it's not necessarily a full time opportunity. It's not exactly that you're looking, you're going there to learn. Actually, I think this is something in the tech industry that really needs to change. I feel a lot of people a lot of companies view internships as opportunities to get more extra headcount. Extra headcount. Yeah,

Mars Jullian
like exactly after that we're output. Yeah.

Augustus Yuan
But really, it should be opportunities to have your engineers grow as mentors or even just like, give back to like, and potentially have new hires. And yeah, I

Ryan Burgess
think that's the wrong one too, is that I've definitely seen that as companies like looking to say, Oh, well, we can just give them grunt work and and that literally gets said, to be honest, it's not going to help you in the long Run to like get more work done. You are getting some of that work done, but it is coming at the cost that your your full time engineers are paying the cost to help, which is a good thing and help grow someone. But I think that's the wrong way to look at it is like, yeah, we can just get so much more done and for cheap labor. Like, that's not how it should work. Yeah, no, not

Moira Huang
at all. Yeah, I think the word learn is really important and interesting, because I think internships are a really unique opportunity for people to go and like really immerse themselves into something for three months, and then take a step back and realize that that's something they want to continue or not. And a lot of my friends, for example, will try to have very different opportunities between year to year so that they can really see the full range of startup to really big company and kind of figure out before they go into full time what they really want. And I mean, I would love to know the answer of how you're supposed to weigh between two different offers because I mean, that's something that like myself and like a lot of others struggle with, and I think also some thing important to keep in mind is just like, internships are an opportunity when you're young to like, also have fun, because I have a lot of friends that are looking at different locations and like also seeing them as a unique chance to live somewhere for three months without permanent repercussions. So I have friends that are, you know, trying to go to New York or Seattle, and these are places that, you know, they might not want to live full time, but obviously is like kind of a superficial reason. But I think it just like, is important to keep in mind that this is only three months and that it's not, you're not there to like sell your life away. But, but I guess like also on that on the other hand of that is that internships do offer a really strong opportunity for people to get a bridge into a full time position that they would be really interested in. And I think that's where the decision becomes much harder because I think the summer after your sophomore year, you know, you can commit to things without a lot of permanent repercussions. But then, for the summer after your junior year heading into your senior year, the position that you take a lot of people kind of view as your opposite. tunity to line up a potential full time offer that you'd be really happy with. And this is something that a lot of people struggle with deciding about is like, do they want to go somewhere where they think they can learn a lot from and you know, get a lot of exposure to a lot of different materials. But also at the same time, it's the consideration of after graduation, what I want to work here as a Myrna live is is a culture of a company that I care about. And I think those are things that like make that final internship that much harder of a decision.

Ryan Burgess
That's a great question, too, is like, I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on that is, you have this opportunity for a internship that yes, three months, but it could lead to full time role. And maybe that's company x and company y, you're not quite sure that it could lead to I guess you never know. But if you thought one was going to lead to a full time role, do you optimize for that? Or how do you think about that?

Augustus Yuan
I feel it really depends on the company. I really, so I go on the subreddit, CS career questions a lot to help people out or even just learn a lot myself. And there's a term that a lot of people use who are in this situation where they say, Oh, I have XYZ companies, which one will maximize my resume value? That's like a term that they use. because quite honestly, like prestige plays a lot into like, not like not only your current job where you go to but like your future jobs, like you're not gonna, you're not necessarily going to stay at the same job wherever.

Ryan Burgess
Like for especially in tech, honestly, like two years. stints is a pretty like normal thing.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah. So I feel like prestige sometimes does play a heavy role. And pardon me doesn't want to admit that that is what you like. That is what you should do. But it might be it really depends on what you're looking for. So

Ryan Burgess
yeah, I think prestige is something that's really hard for people to weigh about. Because, for example, like I guess like for myself, I'm looking at a, you know, like a big company that has a lot of prestige that I don't think I know necessarily want to work out full time but I think I have the opportunity to potentially learn a lot from versus a smaller company which I think would more suit kind of the culture that I'd want to immerse myself in full time. But although is like a good company doesn't have that same kind of like weight and like pizzazz on a resume. So it's how do you choose between something that you could stick on your resume have it there forever, and like maybe carry some weight versus something that is not as much but it's something that you would perhaps find more fulfilling, later on in life have prestige one is a tough one, because you're right like that can set you up for following jobs in your career. But I think of it is when you're so early on, the biggest thing is how do you learn quickly? Like how can you learn and grow as quick as possible? And I think to me, that's not easy to find in a company but if you can think about like the question around it is like you have this opportunity to grow and learn what's the best one for And maybe it's a big company, maybe it's a small startup because you're having to wear like 10 different hats and you get thrown in the deep end and have to like figure it out. But maybe there's not enough support for you to help you figure that out, too. So I think it's really weighing those areas of like, how do you grow and learn. And I think that, to me, is the most important thing. But I can also see the point of like working at a certain company that holds some weight, whether you know, their prestige of Google or whatever it is, it could be very, very valuable.

Augustus Yuan
That is actually one thing I will say. I will say if you've had internships before, if you've had, so, for example, Maura is in her you're in your third year, but their second year you had PayPal, like I feel you don't get many opportunities where you can experience different sized companies because they operate very, very differently, like a small company. Like you get shares. Jeez, Louise. Okay, jeez. I had a long day and

Ryan Anklam
it's not the front In boring hours.

Augustus Yuan
But it's a rare opportunity to get to, to, Oh, you didn't say it. I didn't say it to live live in small versus big company. And they operate very differently.

Ryan Burgess
I do. And I think that can actually even just that you learn a lot you learn like how a startup works, and how a big company operates. And I think you can bring a lot of value to wherever you're going. Yeah. And I know we had an episode where we talked about large versus big.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, larger small companies, definitely check it out. But it definitely if you have the opportunity to try it out, I would suggest doing it because I've talked to a lot of people and some I've got very mixed results of what people love. Big companies, you have a lot of process, but you learn very different problems, problems that deal with scale. But for small companies, you have to be scrappy, but you learn very, very fast and another different way right? You have to You have to juggle many hats. And that is in of itself a really awesome opportunity.

Ryan Burgess
Great. As we like move into Pixar right before what advice would you give someone just going into an internship or being an intern? How can they be successful like one piece of advice that you would give them,

Mars Jullian
I would say one thing that took me a long time to learn even as a full time engineer is to just be very vocal. If you're, a lot of times, you kind of have to direct your own career or your own internship in the direction that you want it to. Because on the one hand, you need to communicate to your manager, whoever's mentoring you sort of what you want to do, because no one can read your mind. And also, you're only you're just figuring out sort of what you enjoy. And in order to kind of figure it out and try different things. It really, it really depends on what you want to do and just communicate that to people if you're either not getting what you are enjoying, or if you want to just try a different direction. This is it's a very low commitment. Weeks which is great, you could you could try a lot of things you can bounce around, it's very low risk to you as well as low risk to the company. So you should be you should feel free to, to vocalize that

Ryan Anklam
piece of advice I would give is it's not just specific to in front of us anybody but don't be afraid to say, I don't know. That's one of the most powerful things you can say in any situation. If you say, I don't know, can you please help me understand that's a way to just grow and learn in ways that you never would be able to without saying it. So don't be scared to say you don't know. Don't be scared to let yourself be vulnerable.

Moira Huang
Um, yeah, can I give advice both in the internship search process and then also when you're there because I think those are like two very different things. But in the search, I think, definitely, definitely, definitely start early but then also, I almost think it's worth it to like really commit yourself for like a month and just like really grind and like work hard at it and like really prepare and like throw yourself full in because there's this very specific time window in which companies are looking for insurance and If you miss a window, it's a lot harder to find a position. And so it sucks, like kind of putting school almost on the backburner. But in a lot of ways, I think internships offer opportunities that you wouldn't get in school and I think that's a almost like a good way to just find yourself like why you should continue to focus on this. And then also when you're in an internship, I think what we said earlier about networking is so important because obviously there's a lot you can learn technically, when you're sitting at the desk and also from your manager and like the whole like development cycle, but then also getting to like meet different engineers have different stacks and like different areas of the company and then also people of different companies and like, for example, like the summer like a lot of us, we really went to a lot of company intern events and like got to see a lot of different companies and get exposure to like how all of those different cultures worked and every single company is truly different and getting to see that and really network and like really, truly squeeze the most out of those three months. I think That's the best advice I have.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, I also would like to echo a lot of that and give two pieces of advice for searching. And at the internship. I feel a lot everyone has said, all the things I wanted to say. But one thing, especially when you're searching, don't underestimate the value of the Career Services. Most schools have career centers, and they have very good advice for resume. I went there a ton, and there is so much advice they gave me and it really makes a difference like it you don't, you might not notice it at first, but eventually does pay like a page pays dividends. So definitely take advantage of those services. And definitely start early, get feedback, just get and another and one thing I hear a lot of people say is they look at qualifications and say, Oh, I don't think I'm fit for that. Don't Don't even just apply, just apply. Don't let don't filter yourself out, let them filter you out. That's their job. Their recruiter job is to filter you out. It's not your job to filter yourself out. Just apply. If they don't want it, they won't. They won't take it. So just apply. That's it. When you out there. Yeah, networking I think is very important, but go in with the mindset to learn and think of what you're going to be taking away. When you come out of the internship, what a lot of recruiters will look at is what technologies you used during that internship, especially for tech. So I think that's something to keep in mind. Like, go in with the mindset to learn.

Ryan Burgess
All right, you guys all have such good advice. And I'm like, What am I gonna follow with this? But I'm actually going to give a piece of advice that it's kind of similar to some of you is, um, but it's something I would give to anyone and I often do to new employees that start at Netflix, and I almost forgot even when I didn't do this at Netflix was ask questions like, I think everyone that we're always scared to ask questions, you know, fearing that we're, we're gonna say something stupid, who cares? ask the questions to learn. And I think that echoes like very similar to like, Mars Ryan, like you both kind of said that and I think that's so important is just asking the questions are be vulnerable. You'll learn so much more and people are very willing to help explain that. If they're not well, you know, screw them. But you know, usually most people are very, very happy to help and and provide that additional details that you may need to learn. So, ask the questions. All right at the end of each episode, we like to choose picks that we've found interesting like to share with our listeners. Let's go around the table. Ryan, what do you have for us? This episode?

Ryan Anklam
Alright, so I have two picks today. The first pick is actually a song that my oldest son has released on Spotify. It's called recovery. And it's he goes into the name of August bell. So nice. Please check it out. Give it a listen, share it around help my son get a little bit of exposure. And the second one is a pair of running shoes that I've been running in lately and it's the Nike Air zoom Pegasus 30 fives and if you've been a runner for any, any period of time, you've probably heard of Nike Pegasus is because they're one of the most iconic running shoes out there. But I go Do a lot of running shoes in the last two years, I've probably ran in 10 to 15 pairs of shoes. And these are by far my favorite shoes I've ran in in the last couple of years. They're just awesome. So if you're a runner, even if you're not a runner and you want to get into running, go grab yourself a pair of these and your your feet will be very happy.

Ryan Burgess
Wow, that's like, man.

Ryan Anklam
If they want to send me a pair of Pegasus is

Ryan Burgess
Mars what do you have for us?

Mars Jullian
I have kind of two travel related picks. The first one is very loosely related to travel. But I love the feeling of kind of sitting in a hotel and you know, listening to the music and doing work and having like a cup of coffee. So I've been listening to the workday lounge playlist on Spotify, which has been really great for coding. I can't have a lot of words in my music so it doesn't have a lot of music and it's not super trancy it's just kind of relaxing and peaceful to code to. And then the second one is I may be an engineer but I love the feel of pen to paper. So moleskin came out with a new notebook called the Voyager notebook which is this Tiny little notebook which is for planning trips. And I'm gonna travel geek out on you a little bit it's got all these different sections so like it's got a daily budget section it has an itinerary section and has a section where you can like reflect on your day and a little map and stickers and like three different little bookmark key thing things anyways I really like it so if you'd like to appeal a pen to paper and also love to organize your trips to the point where they're hyper organized and this is the notebook for you so

Ryan Burgess
you're very well organized so I can just imagine how good that is.

Mars Jullian
Yeah, Ryan seen my to do list which is just compulsive so he understands my levels Mele, love of notebooks.

Moira Huang
Yeah, I guess on that travel No, actually, I lost was this last week. Maybe two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to go to Seattle and there I went to the to hooli Gardens, odd, beautiful. It was beautiful. And I was just like, astonished that this one man alone had this vision to create these like massive pieces. And even in there there was this video that explained this kind of like art piece that he did introduce And like the pieces are just like massive and gorgeous and stunning and it was very mind boggling would recommend. It was impressive as he went blind later on in his life as well. Yeah, what Yeah. And then my second pick is in the end of September, I had the opportunity to go to the Grace Hopper conference. And there I got to hear Priscilla Chan speak. And she gave an amazing talk and I teared up because she talked about the American dream and how like, she's really just like, truly lived it out. And although there's not necessarily recording that I think she gives a pretty similar talk and like this online, easily accessible YouTube video, so definitely recommend checking it out just because I think it adds this layer of depth like both her and like the Chan Zuckerberg initiative that I think is sometimes like lost in the world of tech.

Ryan Burgess
And that conference is quite amazing.

Moira Huang
Yes, I it was an honor to be turnout.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, it's massive.

Mars Jullian
Yeah, some serious FOMO this year.

Ryan Burgess
Serious FOMO and I guess this would have

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, I have two picks. One is a drama that I've been watching called code black. It's a doctor drama. And it's different. I guess it's been out for three seasons, but I just started watching it. It's different from dramas like house where there's this one very, very special case. This is the lives of residents in a hospital that has so many patients that they don't have enough resources and you see them jumping from like patient, they're juggling, like five different patients and things just get crazy. So I don't know, I think it's very exciting and fun to watch. And then shameless plug. My second pick is a medium article that I wrote called them internship. And it talks about I talk about kind of like my experiences with mentoring. I'm an intern. I've mentored two interns, actually, for Evernote, and I've had a great experience. I've learned a lot from it. And I heavily encourage a lot of engineers to take on that same role if it's offered to them that you have the opportunity to mentor mentor and you it's a really fulfilling experience. So

Ryan Burgess
it's a great article too. I've read it so highly recommended. That specially it's well on topic. All right, I have two picks one is actually a Netflix original documentary series. So it's a more of a TV series. It's probably not for everyone. If you like photography and beautiful pieces in the world is a good one for travel. It's called tales of light, it's like really follows like certain photographers. Some I've watched, I guess I've watched like half of the ones first season, and it's following someone doing like action shots, some like doing landscapes, someone doing animals across the world, which is it's some pretty interesting stuff and like just amazing places in the world that they're visiting. So I highly recommend that. And then I chose an article that on GitHub actions, which I found very interesting that one of our previous guests, Sarah dresner, wrote, and it really explains like how GitHub actions are super useful. And she breaks it down really well and covers a lot of interesting things that you can do with them. So I Highly recommend that before we end the episode, I want to thank Moriah for joining us. Thank you so much for joining us. It was great having you on. Where can people get in touch with you? Twitter's great. My username is OIRHU A and G underscore. Great. Thank you all for listening today's episode, you can scribe to the front end happier podcasts on whatever you choose to listen to podcasts on which we are on Spotify now, which is a nice thing to have as well. And you can follow us on Twitter at @frontendhh. Any last words

All
experience