A mixologist's tools

Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a new episode of Front End happy hour, we are joined by our special guest, Ellen Chisa to help us discuss developer productivity. Alan, can you give us a brief introduction of who you are, what you do and what your favorite Happy Hour beverages?

Ellen Chisa
Absolutely. I'm Ellen Chisa. And I'm the co founder and CEO of dark, a new developer tool startup aimed at making it so we can remove as much complexity from infrastructure as possible. Before that, I was always a pm and consumer technology. So it's been exciting to do developer tools. And my favorite happier beverage is a boulevard a

Ryan Burgess
good choice. It's a good one. Alright, let's go around and give introductions of our panelists today. Stacey, you want to start it off?

Stacy London
Sure. I'm Stacy London. I'm a front end developer at Atlassian.

Mars Jullian
I'm Mark Julian. I'm a senior software engineer at Netflix,

Jem Young
Jem Young, Senior Software Engineer at Netflix.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm a software engineering manager at Netflix. And each episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast, we like to choose a keyword that if it's mentioned at all, in the episode, we will all take a drink. What do we decide today's keyword is Focus, focus. So if we say the word focus at all, from now on, we will all take a drink. Alright, well, let's get started. I'm interested to know, thinking of productivity, what are your favorite tools that help you be more productive?

Stacy London
And this is not sponsored by Atlassian? I really appreciate Trello Trello is great. I definitely have organized a lot of things both for work and like not work

Mars Jullian
with Yeah, works for both. It's really extensible like personal. Okay, this sounds like an add. And work uses really I mean, you can organize things, whatever you want you want. So I don't know about you guys, but I've used it for projects and team related work. And you can organize it at different levels.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, we even use it for episode ideas like that, right? That's true. Yeah, actually, if you ever need an advocate for Trello, you're looking at Mars, like just hire her. She will like be an advocate for that. Oh, yeah,

Mars Jullian
whenever I move, I always create a Trello board. And that's how we know what needs to get done and what goes where So yeah,

Stacy London
that's I moved to San Francisco, the whole thing was like through trawling, through both all of our stuff on there was the only way we could keep it. Yeah, did it

Ryan Burgess
make you do that? They're like I'm just gonna say it my favorite tool, Google Docs, I love Google Docs, and also the Google Calendar, I would be lost without my calendar. I don't know what I'm doing every day. It just tells me like it's good. So simple, but I love it.

Jem Young
That's how you know your adult when you're like, the biggest tragedy befall you in life is if your calendar got deleted by mistake you're like.

Mars Jullian
Yeah, one of the one of the things I really like because I use my calendar religiously, as well, and I think it's, it's, you need something to help you have to not remember things because then there was this like interesting study about people who were told to remember something they had to do later in the day were less focused chairs, they were less focused throughout the day, because they had to worry about that remembering that thing later. Whereas people who use the tool to remind them later to do that thing didn't have to worry about not being able to focus, I'm sorry. There was no other word. They just they had more, I guess brainpower or they opened up a new thread in their brain, and they were able to get more done. So I'm a huge advocate for using tools that free up brain space to get stuff done. Google Calendar is a good example. I really like Inbox by Gmail, which you know, you can do reminders, and you can snooze things really easily. And it just it kind of turns everything into one big to do list. So

Ellen Chisa
I used that for email to I used to have the problem where I'd be mentally trying to remember which emails I'd sent and needed a response for. And then I used a friend's Gmail, no response scripts, which then puts them all on a specific label a week after someone hasn't answered, and I no longer have to worry about it at

Ryan Burgess
all. That's amazing. I actually really liked that. Yeah, I use something called Active Inbox. And it did something similar where it would like track if it hadn't been responded. And same thing, it would pull it into a label that you're like, oh, who hasn't responded? You can just go through that. And follow up on that. That's really key.

Mars Jullian
Yeah, inbox will actually do that automatically for some stuff now or if you haven't, someone hasn't responded or you haven't responded. It'll remind you like a couple days later be like, Hey, do you want to follow up on this or for Gmail, there's a tool called Boomerang, which will you can send something and then be like, if no one responds, remind me a couple days from now and it'll they'll just do that stuff for

Stacy London
you. The Geo locating to dues are kind of awesome as well, like reminders on iOS has that where you can say like, notify me if I'm near the grocery store because I need to pick something up. And that's really amazing. Because then you really, then because even if you have to do lists, you have something that's organizing it you still

Ellen Chisa
you still may not Yeah, does it work? Now, this used to be a thing we talked about when I was at Microsoft all the time, but it never actually worked. For me,

Stacy London
it works. I haven't used it like, I don't use it every day or anything. But

Ryan Burgess
yeah, it's been years since I've used it because it didn't work. But I'm happy to hear if you're using it now. And it actually works. Yeah, that's very cool.

Mars Jullian
Does anyone use any sort of like pen and paper ways of staying productive, I don't, I have a notebook that I keep up to date pretty religiously. This year, I started bullet journaling, in a sense without the diary aspect to it just like managing to dues on like a yearly, and then a weekly, and then a daily basis, is really helpful to be able to see like what you need to do, you know, like throughout a week, just like visualize it on a piece of paper, as opposed to in like a digital tool, you know, you just get a list. And that's kind of harder to visualize what you have to do like the events you have to go to with your to dues and how you slot them into those.

Ryan Burgess
I've struggled, I've tried many, many times to have a notebook and I I'll take it to meetings, and then I'll like write a couple things in it, but never look at it again. So was that useful? Maybe because I wrote it. And like that helps you remember, but I don't find I'm using it enough. So I've tried very hard to do that.

Mars Jullian
Yeah. Why is it not in the sense that like writing stuff down and I think Google Sheets or Google Docs or whatever, it's actually more useful for tracking long term notes on a project. But when it comes to organizing to dues on a weekly basis, or a daily basis for me, like writing it down in, like a bullet journal esque format has been really

Stacy London
useful. There's also that

Jem Young
weight so can we, like define productivity? Because what is it? I think we all have maybe a different idea of what being productive means getting shit done. Yeah, but we do we get stuff done anyways,

Ellen Chisa
like getting the right things done.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I like that prioritizing the right things.

Jem Young
Okay. Yeah.

Stacy London
Getting valuable things done. And maybe what value is different based on your context? Or where you are?

Jem Young
Based on time? Yeah, some things are more valuable to get done a certain time. Yeah, I'll

Ryan Burgess
let things that are not as valuable drop. Like, that's how I prioritize it. So yeah, I think that's fair.

Mars Jullian
I think also being able to take multiple projects are tasks like multitasking, and a sense of being able to get everything done on time is a way of being productive. And also being able to give like accurate estimates of how long your work is gonna take.

Jem Young
I don't know, like, the older I get, the more I'm like, 10 people actually multitask. Like, no actually do it. But I think I'm most productive when I'm like, it looks like multitasking. But there's actually like a thread connecting one to another. I was like, I finished this. And I move on to this, and I move on to this. But it looks like multitasking. But it's not

Ellen Chisa
like doing this and I'm waiting for it to finish. So I'm gonna do this other thing while that happens. Yes.

Mars Jullian
So I'm gonna hate to use the word again. But I think multitasking is being able to focus on one cheers, being able to focus on one task at a time but able to get everything done on time. Also. That's fair. And cheers. Cheers

Stacy London
is sort of

Ryan Burgess
going back to the tooling to one thing, especially because we're on like, speaking of developing podcasts, like so we're on, I actually find writing myself, like command line tools has helped me significantly during repetitive tasks that I don't have to really think about anymore. Whether it be sending certain emails or something like I have templating systems that I've written just to save me time, and headaches for having to redo those over and over again, I found that really useful. And it doesn't take me that long to write them. So anything anytime I'm like, Wait, I've done this multiple times, can I like, minimize my effort and just make it a little bit easier and automated. That's what I've done. So I actually have command line tools that have helped that.

Jem Young
My my favorite tools are the ones that they just get out of my way. Like you don't think about it, like don't think about like, Oh, let me create a calendar invite, like, send it to everybody, like you just do it. I just switched from Sublime Text to VS code. Because I got tired of fighting with Sublime Text for like years over basic things. vs. Code. It's okay, but like, it kind of gets out of my way of it.

Ryan Burgess
So like, what what changes? Like, I've used both of them, but I'm I'm What do you mean by gets out of your way.

Jem Young
Like, I don't want to think about how to do this thing. It's just like, natural. It's like using Git, like we all know, to like, make commits and like use command line because we don't think about anymore. It's just like, Yeah, but if we had to use like SVN or something like that,

Ryan Burgess
you know,

Jem Young
that existed before, like Git is actually very novel tool. But

Ryan Burgess
I'd rather go back to FTP and just like overwrite someone's files, like SVN was terrible.

Jem Young
It's like call you're like, Hey, I'm about to push this thing. Do you have anything like, that was like get gets out of our way now, like, we don't think about like, We're committing and does all these things for us. And like, that's the best kind of tool in my opinion.

Ellen Chisa
You don't think about it until you try to teach someone else how to use it right?

Ryan Burgess
It is it's an uphill battle until you get it it's a little bit hard to understand. But once you do it you're like, Wait, this is magical. Yeah, be

Mars Jullian
I'm committing to just like, like pushing code. I think. I think it's done a really good job of introducing new I don't know if I would say tools or features into their, their product that make it really easy to review code or just really clear. I mean, they didn't have the like, comment, approve reject pull request thing until recently. And it's just really easy to share changes and comment on them now and kind of point to specific areas of the code that other people should be paying attention to.

Jem Young
Yeah, but GitHub is like, tools to help me be productive, because it absolutely didn't always exist. So it's like definitely a new tool versus before and be like, hey, Stacy, what did you change?

Stacy London
Yeah, or, or the amount of stuff that's open source on GitHub that like, lets you be productive as you don't have to write 10,000 lines of code from scratch?

Ryan Burgess
Yeah. And you're not redoing something over and over again, like, I feel like before, like NPM and GitHub, I would often have my own like, secret little like stash of helper functions that, you know, I would reuse. Yeah, like snippets. Thank you. That's the word I was looking for. And I would have these snippets that I would reuse because like, Why reinvent the wheel, and you're often doing the same thing over and over again. But there wasn't an easy way to just like NPM install and run away and be good.

Jem Young
Stack Overflow. God, I love Stack Overflow, I would pay for Stack Overflow. Yeah. Because like, why should I spend an hour trying to figure out this one obscure CSS issue, when like someone else has already solved this problem?

Ryan Burgess
I mean, like how many times you Google something and Stack Overflow? The top one, you're like, Yes, I will look at that. I

Mars Jullian
would argue that people sometimes learn programming through Stack Overflow, and I was one of those people.

Ellen Chisa
Any error message, copy paste it in, right? That's perfect.

Stacy London
Google for productivity or search engines in general. Huge.

Ryan Burgess
Well, Brian's not here, so we don't have to talk about things we don't use. We use Google.

Jem Young
I started using Yandex the other day, what the hell is that? Like? Russia's, like Yandex is like the Google of Russia, alright. It's like a different ecosystem. But like, all right, why search search results are different. I use a proxy and sometimes Google like, artificially throttles the proxies. And I like I got tired of it. I was like, I'm gonna try a different search engine. And it's not being thinka being terrible. Like I've done that before. Like, it just doesn't. I feel bad for that team. Because there's

Ryan Burgess
Brian, go fix it. Yeah, what the hell? Alright, we've kind of talked about some tools, things that have helped us be more productive. How do you prioritize your work? What are steps that you take? What are things that help you prioritize your work? That's a

Mars Jullian
really, really hard question. It is, Elon,

Ryan Burgess
since you're, you're making it, yeah, you've got you probably have more work than us.

Ellen Chisa
I think a lot about how to prioritize work. I think this is a little sacrilege, most people would say they would take the most important thing and do it first. Or people will say you'll never get it done unless you start with the hardest thing. I'm a big believer in matching the work to the energy level, which kind of goes back to before, but I will make sure like, if I'm in a good mood to sit down and do something hard, I will do that. Or like if I know I need four hours to set up some new tool, I will spend the four hours doing that when I have four hours and not try to do it in little 32nd chunks where I forget what I've done before. I like that.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, yeah. Like there's times when you're like, I know, this task is gonna take this long. And if you don't have the time, how are you ever going to do it? Because context switching? That's an expense right there. I don't think we've mentioned that yet. But it's the fact is, is that will cost you a lot of time. And so you're not productive when you have to context switch.

Jem Young
So so that is an excellent point. The counterpoint is like yak shaving. They're very familiar with the term. Yeah, yes, Yak shaving. It's like, where you try to solve a problem turns out another problem and you're like, 10 problems removed. So like, I follow the like, what Elon said, yeah, like, try to do things in chunks, you know, it's gonna take a long time. The problem is, you're like this gonna take an hour. And then it turns out, it's like something else. And it's something else would like be engineering me, it's like, let me just solve this problem. And you're like, three hours later, you're like, what's wrong?

Ryan Burgess
Jem? I can't get my computer. Yeah,

Jem Young
I don't know. It's like, how do you know when to just like enough? Let me move on to something else. And I'll just come back to

Ellen Chisa
this, if any of you have figured out how to get yourself out of it, because the only way I have found is as soon as I catch myself doing it, it's like, go ask someone else? And like, is this important? And they're like, no, wait, how did you even get here and then write three hours ago,

Ryan Burgess
I think that's good. Also, to check with your peers too. Because in that case, is like sometimes you're, you're, you're in that like, deep, deep, dark hole that Jem just talked about. And sometimes it's just worth stepping out of it. Maybe go grab a coffee, but or even just ask appear like, Hey, I'm struggling with this and like asking just their thoughts on it. And they're like, why are you even doing this? It's like, so that could really, really happen. And then you're like, Alright, then I won't bother with this task.

Mars Jullian
Well, I think it also goes back to Ellen's point of like matching how you feel about your day with the like, the task at hand. Like if you get to a point where you're frustrated and like Okay, now it's time to step back and like to this you know, to go get coffee or whatever, I found that a lot of times you'll still be subconsciously working on the problem without realizing it. So like gems, shower thoughts, like, I'll have coding thoughts and the next day, I'll go back to work after working on a hard problem like, Oh, I know how to solve that problem now because I've done Yeah, well, you take a step back, you kind of remove yourself from it. You don't realizing that you're, you don't realize that you're still kind of connecting the dots in your brain and then the next morning, like, oh, that's how you do it, and you go back kind of rejuvenated. little bit.

Ryan Burgess
Okay. Have you ever woken up in the middle of night debugged a problem, like while you were sleeping, you're like, holy shit, I figured out that is like the weirdest feeling. But I've had it happen many times, and I will jump on the computer at that I've had dreams about debugging.

Mars Jullian
Dreams that eventually turned into nightmares. But you wake up the next morning, like, Oh, I know how to solve that problem. Now,

Ryan Burgess
I like to prioritize my work. And maybe this isn't the best way. But what's the biggest impact of the business? And I think it goes back to my point where I'll let certain things drop where I'm like, Yeah, that's a nice to have, I would love to get that done. But it's not priority. And so I'll constantly be checking those things. And it could be because of the business or how does it impact my team? How does it impact, like the work that we're doing right now? And if it's something that's like, very future, it's nice to have. And maybe that's not the best way? Because you're never get to those things, but thinking of it more as what do I need to do right now? And what's the biggest impact that I can make? And if it's not that impactful, I'm going to drop it.

Stacy London
Yeah, I like to think about like customer value, or I mean, these are like buzzwords, but they talk to you like product manager, if you're like thinking I'm going to pick up this this particular set of work, like you're not sure if it's important, like just like I always talk to the product manager and be like, is this the right thing that we need to be working on right now. It's just like the thing that will get us to a be testing something sooner or getting feedback on some feature that we're working on sooner? So like that, just asking, I think we'd mentioned that earlier. Like, just ask your teammates, ask the product manager talk. And then in frame it, I think for work stuff, like frame it around? Like, what's the thing that makes your product better for customers? Like what are they? What do they care about? And what's that?

Mars Jullian
I think that's a really good point to bring up too. Because beyond prioritizing work, that's kind of long running a lot. I'm sure a lot of us deal with, like daily interruptions, you're working on something that's like a week out, and then someone's like, oh, there's this like really urgent bug, and context switching, you do pay a price for it. So if someone's like, I have this bug, we have other work to prioritize. It's how, how impactful? Is it to the business? Is it preventing people from signing up? Or is it preventing people from using your products? And yeah, probably something you should look into. But if it's like, oh, this is kind of a latent CSS bug, it's been here for a while, I thought I would bring it up now. Okay. I have I have, you know, other more impactful stuff to do. I think the key word there is impact. Yeah,

Ellen Chisa
I think that's a big difference between early career developers and later career where the beginning it feels like if you solve the hardest technical problem, that is the best thing. And then later on, it becomes what is most impactful?

Jem Young
You can you can argue, a good company culture, and I'll you speak this working at a startup, like from the ground up, like a culture where something's always on fire, and it's like, we got to solve this and you can't do the thing you want to do is probably not the best culture. Like, you. I'm sure you've dealt with something like that. So like, how do you? How do you like this on fire, but we need to fix it now. You can just be like, No, I'm gonna do this thing that I'm gonna do. And like, prioritize that.

Ellen Chisa
Yeah, I was trying to make it so you never want things to feel on fire when they aren't. And I think a problem that happens at early stage companies or with teams who don't necessarily know what's going into the engineering work, is that everything feels really important right now. And I try to make it my job to be the calmest person at the company, which is unusual. But when we need to, like go refactor something, or go look at technical debt, or go do whatever it is, if someone else is like, No, I'm not sure if I should invest the time I try to be the person who says it's okay, we need to invest the time this is important.

Ryan Burgess
I like that, too, is also being calm. I think that's a very important thing is like, even when there's like a production bug, panic doesn't help anyone, it's like really actually just hurts it you're gonna make, you're gonna make panic decisions to fix it. So they may not be right, or you're just like, everyone's stressed to the max. And the thing is, is at the end of the day, the problem is still there. Why be stressed about it. So I think like panicking is not going to help anyone. So I like that just being calm, especially coming from a leadership role. That's really important as being and being calm, and staying focused. Cheers. Here's here's what do each of you do. If you become overwhelmed at the work you have to do? Like, what advice would you give to someone who's feeling overwhelmed? Like how do you deal with that this is

Ellen Chisa
sort of weird and comes from an art book, not an engineering thing at all. It's called the artists way by Julia Cameron. But I will stop whatever I'm doing and write what she calls morning pages, which is I'll just open a journal and write until I hit 750 words. And usually by then I've talked myself off my cliff and actually made an action plan of what things need to happen and why

Ryan Burgess
that's pretty cool. I mean, that's similar even not exactly that but all like write out like all the things that I'm doing or almost agreed to do or whatever it is, and then prioritize that and say like, and also be open and honest with either like product managers, whoever I'm working with to say, these are the things I have these are the ones I prioritize that I'm going to do and these are the ones I'm not going to do right now. I can't there's no way and then if it if they're like, Well, I disagree it's almost like debating what the most priority thing is. And not that I found very useful, but I'll also find I should do those lists earlier I find them like hit the stress point and like oh shit, I need to plan this So better. It's like I feel overwhelmed at that point. I wish I'd do it earlier.

Stacy London
Yeah, I think like getting the team together to talk about stuff that's coming up the work that's coming up like, well before it's actually come up and then in try and break stuff down into smaller chunks of stuff. And that's like, I mean, these are just like normal, agile, whatever scrum what, whatever flavor of the day, you want to call it practices, but to talk about it well ahead of time, and then break things down into smaller pieces. Even when I get the even once there is that smaller piece, I still break that thing down into like, micro pieces. And I'm like, like, working on like, a die a modal dialog, and then I break it down to like, Create button. And you know, like, it feels really satisfying to be like, yep, check, it created the button on that, that dialog, and having it be that broken down, helps to not feel so overwhelmed, I guess, because you almost have this idea of like, these are the things I actually need to do and where you're at within those set of things

Ryan Burgess
by breaking it down to does that also help you write like unit tests as well? Totally, yeah. Cuz you're like, This is what needs to be done here. And so I can write a unit test for this button click or whatever. Mm hmm.

Jem Young
I find like help having a co worker friend to just like, it doesn't solve the problem, but it helps us like, smooth things out, I guess. Same concepts, like writing it down, just talking out like, man, Stacy, I'm like, overwhelmed. I got this and this and this, you're like, oh, man, that sucks. Like, what about this? And just like talking, like, you're not gonna solve any my problems, but it just like, prioritize, and you're like, actually, it's not that bad. You know, I'm not dying. Like the world isn't ending. So like, we just like, pick one thing and knock it off, and then keep going.

Ryan Burgess
I find even like, especially being a manager, a lot of engineers on our team will come to me and say, like, I've at least like 10 or 15 things that I'm supposed to do. What's the most priority? I'm like this and like, drop the rest of them. Don't worry about them. It's like, really, I think your managers can do that, or should be able to do that is like really isolate, what are the most important things and and talking to a manager might actually help that too.

Jem Young
You've definitely done that. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
I mean, I've done that many times, with, like, so many people on our team, it's like, if you were to accomplish one thing, and like dropped all these other things. Yeah, that sucks that we didn't get all these things done. But there's that one piece that I'd rather have the quality work and like the thoughtfulness that goes around it, and we can figure out the rest later. But I think there's always one or two things that are like high priority.

Mars Jullian
Yeah, one of the first things I was gonna say is talk to your manager, and Ryan is my manager. But also, I think, a talk I really enjoyed it for jazz was by Trent Willis, and other Netflix engineer, which kind of goes back to what Jem saying about just, you know, taking someone you know, well at work and having a conversation with them. And also just being able to vent sometimes, like just being able to overwhelm like, there's a lot of either nervous energy or frustrated energy and being able to kind of like have an outlet for that can be really, really healthy. And to just alleviate a little a little bit of the pain,

Ryan Burgess
itching, voted helps. Yeah, it

Mars Jullian
does. I mean, it doesn't get the work done. But it helps you get it back into a place where you can start to work on something again, which goes back to Allen's point about lining up the work you want to do with the way you feel at that moment.

Ellen Chisa
Having also been a pm before PMS are mostly there for that purpose. And like no one's ever going to go to a pm and Well, I hope not, they wouldn't be a very good pm and say I'm overwhelmed helped me prioritize the amps gonna say no, do it. Like that shouldn't be happening. It's happening, there's a very different problem. Because even

Ryan Burgess
in the product managers eyes, there's probably the one thing that they would see the biggest important thing and if they're like, Okay, well, cool, I'd love the other things. But that thing if it was done well and done, right, that's the most important thing.

Ellen Chisa
And it might seem scary to talk to your manager sometimes. And so if that's the scary thing, and you could talk to your Pm, who's your peer, like, that's great.

Ryan Burgess
Good point. Hopefully, your manager isn't scary. But

Jem Young
I got I got one for everybody. And we've, we've all dealt with this, but no one ever talks about it growing up, how do you deal with meetings, because like, meetings are important, because they're like, they help everybody else prioritize. But you can also go to so meeting so many meetings, you're not getting any work done. So it's like, totally orthogonal to like what you should be doing.

Ryan Burgess
I got an answer for you. Yeah. Be selfish with your time. Honestly, I think it's, we all get these calendar invites, ignore it. Like if it's not that important, and you really aren't providing value, why are you going to it just because it was on your calendar? It's okay to skip that. And in my mind, I mean, not everyone will agree to that. But I honestly think if there's no value for you, then there's probably a better thing that you could be doing

Stacy London
one of my PMS recently. She was like, I won't accept it unless someone has a clear agenda, and they've communicated why it's important that I'm there. And if I asked her again, like why, why should I? What's important for me to be there? I was like, oh, that's brilliant. I need to I totally need to do that.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, put more ownership on the person creating that invite. That's a really good point. Yeah, cuz creating

Mars Jullian
meetings isn't just like sending out an invite you also need to set the right context and there there actually is quite a bit of work into setting a meeting in my mind you should like have an agenda you should have you know, the right description to the people can just read it really quickly and be like, Hey, this is what's going on and the right questions and everyone can come in. We're kind of on the same page to begin with.

Ellen Chisa
For me, I care the most of what should the takeaway be walking out of meeting and if we don't know the shape of what that is? Is there shouldn't be a meeting?

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, like that, too. Yeah.

Jem Young
I think I think a lot of people and I see this on PRs, too. It's like, hey, review my PR, and it's like, do I need to? Because like, it's, you're costing me time now. So it's like, Tom, I could be doing something else. So like, is my opinion that valuable? Seven meetings like, all these people, like they get paid a certain amount of money, and you're like taking an hour of their day? So like, is the payoff worth it?

Ryan Burgess
I also feel like it'd be interesting to do almost like highlight how many people are in the meeting? What's their salary for that hour? Half an hour? Yeah, was this meeting not valuable? Honestly, it would be interesting to do. And also, what's

Mars Jullian
the profit though, because if you have like a clearer idea of what you're getting out of it, like to Alan's point, then you can kind of do like very business II, but a cost profit analysis for meetings, that actually would be really interesting, when I'm like an extension, a Chrome extension.

Jem Young
That's like, kind of passive aggressive, because you're like, $10,000. But I agree, it's,

Mars Jullian
it's tough, though. I mean, I think, um, we are kind of blessed in the fact that we come from a place where we're talking about meetings take an hour, out of our day, but in a lot of other places, like meetings will take an hour out of your day, which will add an hour to your day later, in a sense, like, some people will take an hour for a meeting. And that just means I have to work an hour longer later. And I think some of us are pretty blessed that we can just take an hour and we still edit around the same time. But I just want to kind of point that out that you know, in some places, it is productive in other places just makes it a longer.

Ellen Chisa
I think I've also realized it doesn't. People who are asking you for meetings don't always know how to organize it. And I've found it to be really successful when I say, Oh, I know you want to have a meeting, can we have the meeting in the hour before after lunch when I'm already breaking my flow anyway. And oftentimes, it doesn't matter. But they've just picked a random block in their calendar.

Ryan Burgess
I often do that even some, I won't say I do it all the time. But sometimes I will actually be thoughtful about when I put a calendar invite even for like one on ones with someone who's my director report is on like, Oh, they're already in this meeting. And so I'll throw like the one on one after that meeting or before that meeting, because then it's like, well, you're already out of the zone. But throwing it half an hour, they had that one meeting, and then they had half an hour free and then my one on one. That's very costly. And I don't do it all the time. But it's definitely something that I'm a little more aware of, I'll look at that and go, Oh, wait, I could probably slot this in here. And then they're already you know, they're already out of the zone. They're they're not on that right now. Does that kind of lead into the next question that he absolutely does is like, what does it mean being in the zone? Why does that even matter?

Mars Jullian
I think also I want to add to that, like, how do you indicate that to people you work with?

Ryan Burgess
Ooh, I like that

Jem Young
little headphones, middle finger.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, Maurice, how do you deal with that when someone interrupts all the time?

Mars Jullian
Okay, well, not easily, I think it is important to have kind of a boundary there of like understanding that someone is in the zone, because it is a really productive time. Like they're deep in a problem. They're like really focused, cheers. They're really like working on it. And they because the minute you pull somebody out of the zone, in a situation like that, they kind of lose all the context around how they got to that particular point and what they're working on at that time, if that makes sense. And when you're working on a really hard problem, you've worked through a thread of issues, you have kind of a train of thought going on, someone pulls you out, and you lose all of that you lose all of that progress that you've made mentally on working on that problem. So pulling someone out from the zone is, in my opinion, more painful than just context switching. Because getting back to that place, understanding why you got there, how you got there is very, very difficult unless you've written it down, which is not something we typically do when we're working on a programming problem. And I think that's, I mean, that's why it matters to get to that point. And it can be very expensive, when I don't mean money wise, I mean, mentally to pull someone out from that and trying to have that boundary and indicated to other people is not easy, even when you have headphones on or even if you're not even playing music, it doesn't necessarily help people don't always respect the boundary, it comes from a place of frustration and learning. Have you

Stacy London
seen Have you seen that cartoon, there's this wonderful cartoon where it's this person thinking through a problem and they start creating these, there's bubbles above their head, showing all the mental models that they've started to create of like solving the thing and even if you write that down, even if you're like, to like transcribe these bubbles of, of mental models, even writing it down, you still have to recreate those bubbles from that list. So there's always that cost and yet there's the cartoon eventually is this like, someone's like, Excuse me, and you're just like whoa, and you're like, ah, to recreate it all. Again.

Mars Jullian
I hate having a hard and fast boundary on being in the zone. But one thing I really liked and dislikes it about a previous company I used to work at it was new, it was called having we had an open office layout. But we had a concept of an open and closed door. Like when you're programming you could have a closed door and When you weren't not in the zone, you could have an open door. And it was literally a little light on people's monitors that you turn from red to green. I love that, right? So you would be programming and you're in the zone like I really working on a hard problem, I need four hours for it, for example, and you turn your light to red. And then when you're back to being available, uninterruptible you turn it back to green. I thought that was really I didn't love it all the time. But I thought it was an interesting concept that you could close and open your door even in an open

Stacy London
office. Some people can be kind of like jerky about it and have it be read all the time and be like never talked to me. One of the hard times

Mars Jullian
too is like you turn it to read and you forget to turn it back to green. I mean, that's just like really simple. But also someone just like artificially closing their door. I

Ryan Burgess
mean, you could automate that, too is like if you're on like Facebook or YouTube or something that turns

Mars Jullian
green. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point. Yeah.

Jem Young
I think like, your analogy is correct. It's like a computer, you know, you'd like you have a human brain is like a finite amount of RAM, like just like, local memory that you need to access quickly. And like setting the problem understanding and being in a zone is like you have all that loaded up and you only have like, a fixed amount of space. So when someone comes like, hey, it's like, empties out because like, picture immediately No, no, like, every hard problem like you just like dug in, you spent days on this thing or hours and like, you understand it completely. Like you have the entire picture in your head. You can like walk around it and understand. Now think of like the details of that problem. You probably don't remember right now because like at the time is the most important thing because like you knew it inside and out. But now you're like, I fixed it. It was like this weird hack I do. But like at the time, you know, all everything about the problem. So like that's being in the zone. To me, it's just like, nothing else matters. I know exactly what I'm doing right now. And no interruptions. No interruptions. Yeah, at that time, I moved from like standard gym to like 10x gym or 100 Extra. I'm just like on fire. I just create really great things when I'm in the zone. But it's like hard to get there.

Stacy London
One of the things that I think is cool that not everybody can like take the time to do this. But if you have like a one day a week where it's it's no meeting day. And it's like a company wide thing. That's amazing. I love it. It's so nice. It's the first place. I've been there like no meetings on this particular day, people, for the most part, respect it. You can even get back to other teams and be like, Hey, by the way, this is like our team's no meeting day. If you could schedule on it. That'd be awesome. And most people are cool about that. So like it's been the most productive day for me. What's the

Ryan Burgess
no meaning day? Wednesday's. Awesome. I know. I've seen that in Netflix, where there's been teams or I think even at some point more of the company had done that. And I think that's a great idea. Yeah, historically,

Mars Jullian
it was Tuesday. Yeah, yeah. One of our teammates like works from home on Tuesdays because it was historically no meeting day.

Ryan Burgess
So staying in the zone. I think there's ways that can help you stay in the zone while you're actually not being interrupted. But like media, sometimes I can do that. Does anyone find any media, whether it be music, podcasts, anything? What like what helps you stay in that zone?

Stacy London
Front end, happier podcast?

Ryan Burgess
As there's like

Mars Jullian
1000s of us laughing constantly

Stacy London
or not at all? Really? That would be really distracting.

Mars Jullian
I actually really like rainforest and like rain, soundtracks and thunder. Interesting. Yeah, it kind of recreates that feeling of like, well, I can't go anywhere. And he was like, I like if you're at home, and it's raining and thundering outside like I could I come from the East Coast, I miss thunderstorms, like, you know, no other. At that point, you can't really go anywhere, you'd have to embrace that you're at home, and there's nothing you can do about it. And so in a work environment, that means, you know, there's I can't go outside, I can't go. I mean, they can go have fun, but I can, I am staying inside and I have to do something, whether I like it or not. And it just really kind of puts me in the zone because it's very, very focused because the outside world is not so cheers. It's been a while. So yeah, the outside world is not something I want to venture into when there are thunderstorms and rain going on out there. In my mind.

Ryan Burgess
I love that because like I think of any time when actually living in California is tough, because every day is fairly nice. That it's hard because like when it was raining or like I grew up in Canada, so it was cold in the winter, and those are the times you're like I'm just gonna stay indoors and do whatever I want. If it is being productive. No one can interrupt you because hey, it's cold. You're not going out there. You're like you actually want to hibernate whereas here it's tough sometimes I kind of like that idea MORRIS I really

Stacy London
should definitely like move to Wisconsin. Way more productive because winter and you just stay in the house do a lot of work. Yeah,

Mars Jullian
that's exactly right and under sorry. No, yeah, yes. If

Ryan Burgess
you want to move to cold

Jem Young
I'm gonna pick a I picked him before explosion the sky. I love them. I've gotten so much coding done to explosion sky it's like ridiculous because there's no vocals so it's just like pure audio like dislike space out and I've heard down like millions of times so like it doesn't

Ryan Burgess
have a few albums, don't they? They do. Yeah,

Jem Young
I prefer the first one actually.

Ryan Burgess
This one is a really good one.

Jem Young
Yeah, Stacy, you had a good playlist you posted the other day. Oh, thanks. I wrote so much code on Friday that playlist. Running for hours, I was like cranking out code because I music

Ellen Chisa
nice, I need everything to be silent, which I guess is boring. And so that means I'm most productive. I can be like at home by myself without having to go anywhere. But it turns out that doesn't go well with having a job. So instead, I try to make sure if I get out of flow, I get back in the most quickly. And so I find it really helpful. There's this blog, the great discontent in the interview, like designers and engineers and artists about how they make things. And usually reading someone else talking about their creative process gets me back into it fairly quickly.

Ryan Burgess
That's really cool, too. And also, you could probably find interesting things that they do to be more productive. Like, there's this one tattoo artist who I'd always been blown away with by how much work that he can do. He does like tattooing and paintings and all these like crazy things. And I was like, how does that happened? And what he does is he sleeps but he sleeps in like sprints where it's like he'll sleep an hour I heard of that. Yeah, I don't know if that's super healthy or not. But he it works for him. It's it. I mean, I can see how much he produces. So it's impressive. But at the same time, I don't know that I'd want to do that. So yeah, it's like you you work a little bit, get something done. And then you're like, go take a nap for an hour, and then go back to doing whatever, you know, doing work, or that was a painting he was working on. I don't think that would work for me too much. I also find like, it's hard for me to get sleep. So it would be really difficult to be like, alright, it's my hour. I got to get sleep. I would spend that hour trying to get to sleep and get back to work. Yeah, so impressive. If that works. I've heard of that a

Mars Jullian
lot though, that like, you know, just sleeping sprints thing, but same, it's just does it work for everyone?

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, and even if you're like company, like I mean, Google has nap pods and stuff like that. And maybe that you could do that. But I still find that would be hard for me to go. Alright, it's my nap time. Like I

Ellen Chisa
feel like Kid sweating naptime conflicts within the zone time.

Ryan Burgess
Exactly. So you should fight that you should just go in the zone at that point, right? You're like, No, it's my nap time. But I'm in the zone. I'd rather keep going it's momentum

Stacy London
getting off of social media. I feel like that's like, for production like to for productivity. I feel like the the amount of distraction that we have now more than ever, is all of that. It's social media. It's notifications. It's a million things trying to get your attention at all times. So I will lose like hours. I will be like, Oh, I'm just like flipping through a few things. And all sudden, like two hours later, I'm like, Oh my God, I've done nothing. I've done nothing. And like sometimes it's good to take a break and do those things. But other times, you can get so much more done. If you shut that stuff down.

Ryan Burgess
I'm so guilty every time I pick up my phone for a reason. I get sucked into like Twitter, Instagram, and I'm like, oh, yeah, what was I gonna do? And I like totally forgot. And it's so painful. It's bad

Jem Young
for what you're about, like being like, you need acne, Ellen's that's like new. It's not new to me. But like, I think that our generation is just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, that's what we're used to. So like, background noise is comforting. But I have heard a new thing and it's, it's not new, obviously. But it's like we don't spend enough time in silence Just like nothing just like let our brain cycle through. And I've been trying to do that more so used to like, listen to music in the shower, because like who doesn't? It's a great time to like, listen, but it's just like, No, I'm just gonna shower. I

Mars Jullian
shower. The shower. Thoughts are making a comeback.

Jem Young
Yeah, but it's like it is good to like read or just nothing. Which is really hard to do. Surprisingly, it is. I don't know, maybe it's like if our parents watching this like Millennials

Ryan Burgess
I was it.

Ellen Chisa
It was weird. Yeah, it made me really dizzy at first, but it was actually pretty cool. I would recommend doing it. It's kind of fun here.

Mars Jullian
Do they have them in here in San Francisco? I

Ellen Chisa
don't I was in Boston at the time, but I'm sure they do. I feel like Boston has the San Francisco property. Okay.

Jem Young
So if dark becomes a billion dollar company, what it does, will you buy them for the office like sensory deprivation.

Mars Jullian
We've gotten to sensory deprivation.

Ellen Chisa
Having worked for two CEOs who like custom designed the entire office to be exactly what they wanted. I am now the person who's like, What Would all of you like? What can I get for you? Because I can't tell

Ryan Burgess
you that. Yeah, no, I think that's really important as a CEO is like to really suit it for the people and not necessarily yourself.

Ellen Chisa
Our designer painted the office black of blue, purple and orange. And I didn't know until after he'd written the words on the wall and I was sitting there be like, I could react or I could just let it go and see what happens. And then it worked out really nicely. All right, black and blue and purple and orange. Yep. It sounds really weird. It worked out. So when I saw the words written on the wall, I was like this is gonna be a disaster and then it works. Okay, I'm glad I heard you

Ryan Burgess
put this Gonna say yeah. And I think that's that's important to actually even for productivity is putting trust in your co workers and colleagues, I think that's really, really important is actually, I think delegating and being able to trust that someone else is doing the work can really help to.

Jem Young
That's yeah, that's a great point. Well, yeah. If I'm on my phone, like, I don't want, I don't know, let's see, oh, coming by be like, while you're on your phone. It's like I could be doing mobile testing. Or if I'm just watching Netflix, it's like, this is what I need in this moment right now. Like, don't question that. But the the worst thing has worked for like, always questions like, why are they in the break room having chips and like for an hour, and they haven't gotten any work done? It's like, that's not the way to think about like your employees.

Ryan Burgess
Alright, as we wrap up, I have one last question for everyone. What advice would you give our listeners that could maybe it really be helpful for them to stay more productive in their jobs?

Mars Jullian
That's hard. Because I mean, going back to your last point, I think, figuring out what works for a particular person comes from it comes from empathy or sympathy. At this point, I don't know which one both comes from empathy and sympathy, you have to understand that everyone has a different process. So I mean, I can only offer like what helps me to be more productive, which is to, like, be vulnerable. Actually, when there are moments when I'm overwhelmed, I will talk to coworkers, I'll talk to my manager, I'll say these things out loud, and just acknowledge that this is how I'm feeling. And if I'm in the zone, also be like, Hey, you have a question, give me an hour, or give me a minute. And that's new. For me, that's not something I did along for a long time. But being able to just be self aware enough about what you need, and be selfish with your own time and be able to be vulnerable to express that to other people

Ryan Burgess
like that. For me,

Stacy London
I think my biggest advice of like, all the years of doing this is working 80 hours a week is not how you be is not how you're productive. For me, it's getting sleep, taking breaks from computers, going outside in nature, getting out in sun, getting vitamin D. All of these things, make the time that you do focus, cheers, much more, much more productive. I think some of your best work is when when you are rested, and your brain is ready to handle the problem. And you can't do that if you're exhausted.

Ryan Burgess
Good point. I think like we always forget that is like being productive is getting what we're trying to get done. But sometimes just taking a step back from that is really important.

Jem Young
Yeah, I'd say exercise is like your own exercise. I'm not saying like go to the gym and like get your heart rate up to like, whatever, just, if you want to play pool or like do something physical, like get your body going like no matter what, what science you subscribe to, everybody will say like being physical helps your brain like it builds up that sugar your brain consumes, I'd say largely, it's establishing like the habit of like, what you need to be productive. Like for me, I should be more flexible about how I'm productive. But like when I'm working from home, it's like, I got my monitor plugged in, I got like this, I have like a water here. So me to get up. It's like, I have my entire setup. And I just like crank out stuff because I don't need to worry about anything else. And like for me that's most productive. Other people have something different, but it's like find the habit or weird patterns that you have and just like stick to those. And like always try to fall into those if possible.

Mars Jullian
I would substitute the word weird for just a unique,

Jem Young
I guess. Yeah, it's not weird. It's pretty standard, I

Ryan Burgess
guess. I mean, I think even for me is like having a decluttered desk and things like that will help me so like, if it's cluttered, I know I'm not gonna be productive because it bothers me. So it's like, just take the five minutes to clean it up. And then that will actually help me

Jem Young
and also get little things done. Like That's insanely helpful. It's like you got a big bug, you need a closure. I'm like that close some easy ones like close and easy one because it like it helps you ramp up and like you eventually get to that point. You're like I'm on a roll.

Ryan Burgess
Because back to Mars's point when she was talking about carrying that like cognitive load of like offloading something, you just like offloaded 10 Things that you were still in the back of your mind that you're like, okay, yeah, this is my major task that I have to do. But I also have these like five bugs that are sitting there that are pretty easy. And you're like, you just hammer those out. Now you just have one major task to do. And I'm a big subscriber to that.

Ellen Chisa
I totally agree with all of that. I think all of us together are things that you all came up with by being reflective. Everything being reflective about what works for you is really important. And that's not like, you guess you can read trend productivity blogs if you want to, but like read all 10 and then decide which one is the one that matches with how you do things.

Ryan Burgess
Great. As we wrap up each episode, we love to share pics of things that we found interesting, that may be helpful to our listeners, things that we found interesting. Let's go around the table and share pics for today's episode. Stacy, I'm looking at you as a start.

Stacy London
Alright, I have two picks today. The first one is related to kind of this topic of productivity. So I'm going to recommend a tool called bolt. It's a it's a tool written by Jamie Kyle who also worked on yarn flow and learn a whole bunch of other stuff. So I work on a large sort of React UI component library, which is mono repo. It's a single single repo with many many many sub components and packages. and working on that kind of stuff is really difficult. And like if you need to upgrade a particular package like I was upgrading some styled components stuff recently, you'd have to do that by hand if you didn't have tooling to help you with that. And it's really takes a lot of time you're not productive, you're doing things that computers should be able to do for you. So tools like bolt, do that stuff for you. And I think that's really great. So that's a really cool package if a tool if you're working with something in that in that way. Second pick is a song by John Hopkins called Emerald rush, it's like a new release, he hasn't released stuff in a long, long time since 2013. He's a British producer, musician, a bunch of different kinds of electronic music, kind of like IDM, ambient, contemporary, classical, really great, very excited to see new stuff from him. So check it up.

Ryan Burgess
Ours already have that was

Mars Jullian
my turn, I was trying to find that one like one hour track of thunders and renders rain storms from when I was in college, but can't find it. So my first pick is a news service I just learned about called texture, where someone explained to me as the Netflix for magazines. So you play you pay like one monthly subscription price, and you get access to I think there's 200 Plus magazine magazines on their site. And I think that's pretty interesting, because I don't want to get the paper version. And I also don't really want to pay for the subscriptions for all of them online. So if you're interested in in, in that you can learn a lot about different topics just because there are magazines about different things all the time. The second is a Chrome extension called pseudo localizer. So we just learned about this at work where if you want to have a really quick and somewhat cheap way of figuring out localization issues with our UI, for example, like extra padding, like super long strings, or dial lyrics, for you know, different languages, you can use you to localizer, which will replace your text on your page with kind of strange looking text somewhat human readable, but will help you uncover UI issues earlier than you would in a normal localization cycle. So it's pretty interesting. I'm excited to use it and we'll see how it goes.

Ryan Burgess
Great. That would be more productive at that point. Yeah, yeah, definitely jam what you have.

Jem Young
I have two picks today actually have three picks. First one is called NPM. Compare. I don't know if you fit around recently, but if you were trying to find a package on NPM and there's like, oh, I need to find this thing that does Josephine for Express. Sophie. I don't know. There's like 50 packages like oh cookies cookies, my favorite one like try to find a cookie package on NPM this pretty sure I have my own Yeah, like checking my mixtape checking my NPM so it's a site that lets you compare different things. So it's like, right now I have connect vs. Code vs. Express. It's like, what kind of framework Do you want? It pulls up all the details about like, how long it's been around? When's the last update? How many dependencies it has like super useful stuff? Because right now it's just like NPM install and like hopefully it does your use case. My second pick is actually Ellen. Who by the way we met filled out she reached out on LinkedIn it's like a really solid like hey, I'm working on this thing I love your podcast was like personal details and I was like, I'm not interested. And she was like cool. By the way your podcasts awesome. Like you want to come on and like that's how it happened. It was just like yeah, so I'll tell him because like it was a it was a good recruiting message. I was like, I'm not interested right now but like thanks I like I appreciate you put in time and like I respect that and I just never ever see that. So that that's my second time I

Ryan Burgess
get a lot of recruiting reach out so everyone does and I can appreciate they're so lazy.

Jem Young
They're also lazy. Oh my god. Anyways, let's do we have an episode about that yet? Or this next episode? In my third pick for my segment called Valley silicon why pick things that are just ridiculous. It's so good. It's ridiculous. I think now is raw water. Have I talked about that? Yeah. So we all know to Sarah right that much maligned expressly. So the CEO of that now failed startup is now on raw water, which is the movement to drink raw water because you know, the government put stuff in water

Stacy London
for what are a W water

Jem Young
just raw as in like unprocessed, unfiltered water straight from a stream? Because like, that's healthier. And as human evolution we haven't learned anything about. Yeah, the facts of trend, but the fact is so outrageously expensive. It's like, ah, yeah, that's Valley silicon right there. It's so stupid.

Mars Jullian
They're doing less work.

Jem Young
To the water. Yes. Yes. It's like here's his cake and some eggs and some sugar. It's called a rock cake. You make the cake yourself and I'm charging you $500 for that. You're like wow, what a great experience I'm paying for now. Like, yeah, anyways, look it up raw is a real thing. Yeah, good pic. Sorry, that's really ranty but

Ellen Chisa
right now the gem is disclaim this for me. I am hiring people. So if anyone is excited about working on developer tooling, and specifically about making it so the next order of magnitude people can write code. Please come talk to me about that.

Ryan Burgess
What specifically are you looking for?

Ellen Chisa
I'm looking for two people, one front end engineer, which is how I found the podcast because I try to do my research before trying to hire things and try to do the job myself. I have a lot of feelings about bad recruiters that I'm also happy to talk about. Also, the best part about hiring is that you get to meet a lot of really cool people, because even if they don't want a job, they'll put up on their podcast, which is great. But so I tried to pick the medically appropriate things for the podcast too. And so for the front end side, I redid my personal website recently, and I use skeleton CSS, which is a really nice, easy, responsive grid layout system. And for someone who doesn't spend all my time writing CSS, this made my life so much better. And if you're redoing your personal website, or if you need an easy responsive framework, please use skeleton, or if you don't like writing CSS, or if you don't like writing CSS, which I feel like is many people. And then on the happier side, there's a designer in Chicago that I followed for a long time, Creighton Berman, who just released a new set of cocktail things, which is a mixing glass and two cups and a set of decanters. And so his website is, and they're these beautiful frosted glass things. And I bought myself a set with a Kickstarter because I was excited about supporting him. And then I liked it so much that I bought another set for our office. And so I highly recommend those. So those are both my front end and happy hour.

Ryan Burgess
Well done. Like I like that stain on theme. And these look amazing too, by the way, so I can see why you bought multiple ones. I have two pics, I have one that I guess could be like a productivity tool. If you're trying to capture video of yourself but also of your screen at the same time. There's this really great tool called soap box. It does a very good job of and you can really edit it to is like switching between the like capturing of you talking and then the screen you can like after Eddie Nina is like it's all in the browser. It's super easy to use. It's a Chrome extension that you can get. The reason I actually know about it is because I was talking to an engineer who works on the tool name is Kim. When I was talking with her. She's like, Yeah, you need to try this tool I'm working on and we had a really good conversation. I was like I tried it out. I'm like this tool is amazing. So I highly recommend checking it out. It My second pick is Tales from the script. It's a podcast, really on front end with a horror theme to it, which I love. The reason I pick it to is Chris Ditmars. Uh, he reached out to me to be on the podcast. I did an episode last week with him. I think it's actually coming out shortly. So after this episode is aired, it definitely will be out. I was speaking to him with about AV testing, especially since we do a lot of that at Netflix. But yeah, definitely a really good podcast. I've listened to listen a few episodes on there. I highly recommend it. Before we end the episode. I want to thank you, Ellen, for joining us. Thanks for being a guest. It was a pleasure having you and where can people get in touch with you?

Ellen Chisa
Yeah, I'm at Ellen Shiza on Twitter, or Ellen she's a if you google it anywhere on the internet

Ryan Burgess
and you are hiring. So

Ellen Chisa
please google me and email me. Awesome.

Ryan Burgess
And where can everyone get in touch with the panelists Stacy?

Stacy London
Stacy Londoner on Twitter.

Mars Jullian
I'm Mars Josephine on Twitter,

Jem Young
Jem Young on Twitter.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm @burgessdryan on Twitter. Thank you all for listening today's episode, make sure to subscribe to front end happier podcast on whatever podcast app you use Stitcher, Apple podcasts. What else do we have breaker? There's tons of them out there. Follow us on Twitter at front end ah, any last words focus Okay.