Beyond the Bingo Card: Leadership Lessons with Karen Catlin

Ryan Burgess
As many of you know, just about a year ago, I left my job at Netflix to take some time off and to reflect. During this break, I've realized how much I've missed talking about leadership, mentorship and really strategic thinking to grow a team. I've spent over a decade as a leader in tech, and what I've realized is a lot of us just get thrown into the role. We started out as an engineer or something else, and then we're just thrown into the leadership role with not a lot of training. That's why I've decided to launch a new video series leadership in tech. In this series, I'll be covering everything from leadership strategies leadership book reviews and sharing some of my own experiences to try and help others learn and grow. If you're looking to grow as a leader or just want to navigate the challenges of management, head over to my youtube channel at youtube.com/ryan Burgess and subscribe. My first videos are live and there's more to come. Welcome to a brand new episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast. I'm your host. Ryan Burgess, today, we're diving into a conversation with someone who's been doing incredible work for over a decade now. Karen Catlin, first joined us back in May of 2021 and today she's back on to reflect on the last 10 years, on her journey with better allies and helping people in the workplace. Karen is a former tech leader turned leadership coach. She's the author of better allies, a book series that is focused on improving inclusion in the workplace. In this episode, Karen shares her journey on how a simple bingo card back in 2014 has now sparked an entire movement around allyship, Karen literally, it started with a bingo card.

Ryan Burgess
Karen's work is focused on everyday actions that are small but impactful. Karen I learned I really needed to understand and support and be a better ally myself. For people from other underrepresented

Ryan Burgess
groups, actions that each of us can take to make a workplace more inclusive in the episode, we got into some interesting discussions on how language has changed over the years, and how subtle shifts in the way we use language can really make a more meaningful impact to an inclusive environment in a world full of cancel culture and calling people out, Karen shares her approach to calling people In rather than calling them out. So Karen the strategy is seek common ground and educate.

Ryan Burgess
This conversation is packed full of practical advice, advice on how we can be better allies, both in and outside of the workplace. Without further ado, let's dive into the conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. Karen, you're a leader. You've been a leadership coach, leader at tech companies, the author of better allies, which is honestly such an amazing book, one of my favorites, and what it's celebrating its 10th year. Now, Karen that's right, that's right, Ryan, it is so fun to be back here on the front end Happy Hour podcast. And yeah, the book is not 10 years old yet, but my work on better allies is 10 years old. I'm celebrating my 10th anniversary of focusing on this important work of allyship, how people can be better allies to anyone who's underrepresented in their workplace. And as you know, my whole approach is, what are some of the everyday actions people can take to be more inclusive so that, really, everyone can do their best work and thrive. So that work started 10 years ago.

Ryan Burgess
That's awesome. I mean, I've benefited a lot from it, because, like, the book, as well as your newsletters, have just helped me, like small things, like just little things that, like you read it and you're like, especially in the newsletter, you're like, Huh? I really like that. Like, it's just something that I can apply that to, like my team, or how I think about something I think, to me, it's always just changing your way of thinking just a little bit can go such a long way. I was even lucky enough to be featured in one of your newsletters, and I don't think you even knew at the time, but it had been someone on my team had tweeted something that I had done for them, and they were celebrating it, and you had pulled that out. And I was like, oh, that's kind of cool to be featured in it, too. So it's, I love how that circle happens. Yeah, Karen I am. Well, I used to love Twitter. Don't spend as much time on that anymore, but that was such a good source for me to understand what was happening in many workplaces. Examples of great allyship, as you got called out on, and then also all the cautionary tales i got to kind of mine and talk about and learn from too. Yeah, getting more of that from other social media platforms these days. I must admit, Twitter just, I'm x, whatever, just doesn't feel the same.

Ryan Burgess
It doesn't feel the same, Karen. It's sad because like you and probably when you and I first started conversing was through Twitter too, and in those times it was like, I've met so many amazing people, had so many great conversations, learned so many things too, just like you had mentioned. But it doesn't feel the same. I still go there a little bit, but just not as much. I'm curious, what's the platform. Choice for you now that's kind of like you're fighting that you go to more Karen LinkedIn. LinkedIn is where I feel I get incredible engagement, I learn a lot and so forth. And I'm also doing a lot more on Instagram. So I you know, the accounts I follow on Instagram are it's a different vibe than LinkedIn, but it's different, definitely, still I can search for different things that said I am trying to help curate content from threads. I threads, seems like it's got so much potential. It's not quite there for me yet, but I'm spending more and more time there daily. I am on threads, looking for information I can learn from, as well as sharing things that I am learning. So I'm hopeful about threads. That's

Ryan Burgess
awesome. I've go there a little bit, here and there. Maybe I need to spend a little bit more time now I can follow you for some good content. So that might be it too. Is I feel like it's not quite there too, but I feel the same. It has that potential. It has sucked me in here and there. So you start to find that in your own trends, you're like, Oh yeah, there's something here. So that's good to hear. I like that. Let's dive into so 10 years of your work, which thankfully, we have all benefited from, like I'd mentioned earlier. How did that start? You know, how did that journey start? I know, in, you know, when you joined us, it was a couple years ago, I think it was in May 2021, that you joined us on an episode talking about inclusion and the work that you're doing, which honestly, if you haven't listened to that episode, please go back and listen. It is so good as jam packed full of information that is very, very useful. But let's get to like, how did you start this work? And like, I know you had left a high tech position, and this is something that brought you into that journey. Karen Yeah, yeah. So literally, it started with a bingo card, a bingo card I saw online that had been created for the Grace Hopper Celebration in 2014 Grace Hopper, for people who don't know, is like the biggest celebration of women and non binary people in tech. And there's, it's an amazing annual conference that they hold. And in 2014 one of the featured sessions was the male allies panel. And ahead of time, there were some people who were kind of upset, concerned about this male allies panel, because it was a group of men taking away key speaking slots at a women's conference and non binary people conference from the people who should be on stage. So there's some concern like, why do they get to speak and we don't? But also, there's some concern about, like, if these people in their companies were so great at male allyship, why aren't there more women in these in their tech companies? Because the numbers don't look good that are being reported. So a lot of concern was building. So ahead of time, a group, excuse me, a group of people made a bingo card of all the phrases they thought these men who were thought they were better allies would be saying on stage, and they handed the bingo card out as people walked into that auditorium. And sure enough, about halfway through, some woman yelled out bingo because she had gotten the bingo she had heard enough phrases on her card. And of course, there was laughter in the audience. I wasn't there. I heard all of this second hand. But that bingo card and that experience led me to realize, Wait, these actually are good guys. They were willing to go to this conference, take time out of their schedule, speak about this topic. They're probably doing a lot of work. They're good guys, but they don't get it. So what if I created an alternative bingo card of all the phrases we do want to hear from men working in tech or working in any industry, frankly, to show that they are being allies. And you know, these are the things we want them to be doing. So I worked with another engineering woman, a woman in engineering, her name is Kate Houston, and she and I created an alternative bingo card of all the phrases we did want to hear, we then decided we needed to share that bingo card. We wrote a story for it, for The Daily Beast, as well as I started a Twitter handle called better allies. And that Twitter handle initially was anonymous. I wanted to pretend, I guess, that I was a man tweeting about how to be a better ally. I just thought my voice would be so much stronger if it man was telling other men how to do this. So it's kind of it was anonymous, and that Twitter handle just started growing in popularity that led me, I mean, people actually asked me to speak, and they didn't even know who I was. Anyone at that better allies twitter handle coming? Can they come and give a talk on this topic? It's really important. So I started getting speaking requests, which I always accepted, because I love talk, love talking, and I love speaking about this important topic. And then people started asking me to write a book. So that did lead me to writing my first book, which is called better allies. And then I since have written three more books as well in the better ally series. So and as you say, I write this weekly newsletter. I can't not do it now. It's just part of who I am, what I'm doing professionally, and I based on the feedback I get, I just know this is filling a need. So it fuels me. It fuels me to keep going.

Ryan Burgess
I love that too. It's like, because sometimes, yeah, you get in that rhythm of things and people like, how do you do that? Right? Like, because it's work, right? Is work. But after you've been doing it for so long, sometimes it just becomes, like, a bit of a habit that you've just worked into your like, way of doing things. But also, I'm guessing, that it's also a drive when people tell you these things like, Hey, I've gotten value out of this and that that is probably a huge motivator. I'm assuming, Karen oh, I know this about myself. Many people are like this. I thrive on positive reinforcement. That's the thing that does make me keep going. So I know I have some people who disagree with me, some haters out there, this, this, this stuff ain't my responsibility to fix, or I don't care about this. You know, I had to work hard to get where I am. Why can't everyone else figure it out? Whatever the pushback might be, this wokeness stuff is not for me. I have some haters, but I have so many supporters in that positive feedback, that positive reinforcement, is the thing that keeps me going.

Ryan Burgess
I love hearing that. That's so good. And unfortunately, well, maybe it's actually a, I don't know you could look at a positive of like, there's always going to be haters. And I think when you're doing something of value, you're always going to have the haters. Like, it doesn't matter. It's like, you know, and as you grow, you're gonna have more of that, but hopefully that you have more of the supporters that outweigh that, but you're still gonna have more of the trolls and the haters that are out there. It's tough, like it's not an easy thing to just ignore. It's there. Yeah, it Karen helps, helps me get through it. You know, it's almost like any startup, whether it's a startup product within a larger company, or a startup itself. Startup company, if you've got competition, if you've got someone else trying to solve the same problem, it's validating. And to me, it's almost like when you've got haters out there working, you know, and you're on a potentially controversial topic, it actually validates that you're doing good work. So I like that connection there. No no, that's

Ryan Burgess
good. That's always helpful for people to hear that too. Because I think, like, when you put yourself out there, like, and I love that you kind of started like, as this, like Alter Ego, that was a man and kind of behind the scenes. I think that was a way that it was probably just easier for you to get those opinions out there. And then you start to realize, okay, like this, you know, all right, cool. I can put my face on this now, but you know, anytime you're putting your face out there, it's hard, like it is a tough thing, because people are going to hate on it and say something, and so that's that is tough. But I love hearing your perspective on that Karen well, as I was writing the book, and as soon as I was getting close to publishing it, like I'm putting my name on this, writing a book is a lot of work. Yes, you should, I kind of, you know, out of myself as the voice behind this whole thing.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, yeah, like, I have friends that have written books and, like, just hearing the sheer volume of work that goes into it, it's like, yeah, you need to put your name on that. Like, it's like, even if it's a flop, you're like, I did that. I don't care, like, I put it in that work. Thank you. Yeah, cool. Well, so yeah, you've had 10 years of this, like, 10 years strong, 10 years of anything, is a really long time. So, you know, you've written, like, you mentioned, a series of books now, you've had the newsletter. You've done things on Twitter and now on other social media platforms, you know, I would, I'd be really curious is, how has that message have evolved? Like it started from this bingo card, which I remember hearing all this back when you had mentioned that. I'm like, Oh yes, I totally remember this happening. But yeah, so bingo card kicks it off. Like, what has changed through your thoughts on this, and just as you reflect on those 10 years, Karen yeah, yeah. So I first started doing this work because I was a woman in tech and underrepresented as a result, one thing I started learning through my work, through my work on the bingo card, even though it was very it was very heavily gender oriented, then I learned I really needed to understand and support and be a better ally myself, for people from other underrepresented groups, groups that I'm not a part of, given all the privilege I have, I'm a white woman, I have, you know, the incredible career behind me that gives me a lot of privilege to navigate certain conversations and rooms, frankly, there was but I am not a person of color. I am not someone who does not have a college degree from a highly selective university. I am not someone who is member of the LGBTQ plus community. I am not someone who's living with a disability. Ability. I needed to learn about so many other experiences and make sure that I could identify how we could be better allies for everyone who's underrepresented to the best of my abilities. And so I quickly learned I needed to expand beyond just gender, and especially so much so many people, myself included, when we first start focusing on gender. It's usually the white woman's experience working in tech or any other industry, and I absolutely had to expand my understanding and knowledge of what it's like to be a woman of color in these industries. So that's a that was a huge learning. And frankly, Ryan, if I had realized how much I had to learn. 10 years ago, I probably wouldn't have done any of this. It would have been overwhelming to realize how much I didn't know. So that naivete sometimes is a benefit. And so that night, yeah, right. I mean, so that naivete, I had the confidence to get started, and once that's the whole thing started. I had the confidence to keep pushing forward, and I'm still learning today, which is why, you know, this is so interesting to me, too, this whole field,

Ryan Burgess
I think that's what I've always gravitated towards, too, is like, so let's talk about privilege there too is like, I'm even higher on the chain of privilege at that point, being, you know, a white man, and I like that you like, kind of unpack it that way too, is that there's a lot of privilege that comes along with that and recognizing that. And I think that that, to me, is always a really good start to that journey, to kind of open your mind to say, like, yeah, okay, I have this. But what are other things that I'm unaware of? Like you said of someone with color, or someone who's an immigrant, all these types of things that have different shapes that come to you know, maybe the tech industry, hopefully, because it has gotten better over the years, maybe even some of your work has absolutely helped that it is tough too, because you're right, like you start to go down that journey, and it's a constant learning thing. It's like you're You're never done. I feel like I learned so much from you, and even hearing you say that is like, Oh, I'm still learning all the time. I kind of like that too. It's like, there's no perfect answer for it. It's like something that we're just constantly evolving and getting better at. And I think that's a cool thing to be diving into, Karen absolutely and I'm so thankful for any individual who shares their story online in whatever format, so that I can learn from that. I'm so thankful for the conversations I get to have with clients where things come up and I learn from that. I am so thankful for researchers who spend time looking into non inclusive situations, whether it's based on the feedback you might be giving to employees or the hiring practices, or whatever it might be. I'm so thankful to those researchers who do that research and then share their results in public papers. So I just want to give shout outs to all of those people who I get to learn from. And it's a pleasure, it's an honor, actually, to be able to distill some of the things I learned through my newsletter that's

Ryan Burgess
That's amazing, and I guess maybe on that note of like learning. And, you know, like you said, I started off almost naive to like, how much I needed to learn. What are some of the things looking back on this 10 year journey of like, things that really just hit you hard? Like, Oh, my God, I learned that. Like, what were some of the things that really just, you know, helped you learn it? Like, obviously, papers and reading and other books and life experience in general. But I'm curious, what are some of the things that really just stuck out for you as, like, wow, that was a learning moment. Karen It's so interesting. So a few years ago, I started an annual edition of my newsletter called pundit accountability. And I learned this from a New York Times reporter who does a daily newsletter just like, you know, those of us who are journalists should have a pundit accountability, like things we got wrong about our journalism. And I'm like, you know, I should do that too, because I get things wrong, and I talk about it my newsletter when it happens, but I think it's good to have kind of an annual edition. So a big thing for me, and this is gonna be ongoing, but it's language, it's my language that I use, that I don't realize is non inclusive. Now, early on, I started realizing a lot of people don't like the word guys. Hey guys, y'all, you know, you guys, whatever, that was part of my vernacular. But a lot of women and non binary people just feel like this is not including me at all. So that's like an easy example, but I've also learned to say things like, oh, in my book, better allies. I wrote something about because these women didn't want to handicap their careers. They did blah, blah blah handicap their careers. Well, someone gave me feedback that that is an ableist term, assuming that a handicap is a bad thing, you know, to handicap something. I kind of was thinking it was more like golf, but maybe golf, the usage of golf, you have a handy. Cap is also an ableist term anyway, so I could have just said the word hurt. These women didn't want to hurt their careers, or damage their careers, or something like that. I've used the phrase nursing mothers room, which is really, it's an outdated term that I'm used to, like, you know, workplaces should have a nursing mothers room, when really a lactation room is better because it's just more inclusive for non binary, or people who are transitioning, who happen to be feeding a child through lactation. Oh my gosh, here's another one. I'll just do one more about language. I must admit, I did not know about Juneteenth 10 years ago. This is something I didn't Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. And maybe if I grew up in the South, which I did not, maybe if I had, I would have learned about I don't even know, but Juneteenth is an annual celebration for people who don't know about when the last group of enslaved people in Texas learned about the Civil War being won in their favor and the Emancipation Proclamation. And it was like two years after the war had ended, I think officially. So it was like it was, it was a long time. And so people celebrate this anniversary for the significance that it is. I when I wrote about it in my newsletter, for the first time, I described people as slaves. I said something like, you know, when the when the slaves in Texas, in this one town in Texas, finally heard about the Emancipation Proclamation, and people said, Karen, don't use the word slaves. It. It describes someone as that is their only identity. It's more inclusive to call them formerly enslaved people. So like, just language. I'm just making mistakes about language all the time, that when you're part of the demographic, the identity that that is not inclusive of it, it. It feels like this person doesn't know what they're talking about. They're not thinking of me. They don't get it. And it turns people away from important conversations, from work conversations, whatever. So I do, I do really try to learn and be, be evolving my language. Here's okay. I mean, I've got, I've got a list of some of these pundit accountability things in front of me want one more

Ryan Burgess
Absolutely, keep going. Okay, great. These are lessons that we all are learning. I actually want to stop too and say, like, Thank you for your vulnerability too. Like, I think looking back at those mistakes, it's really easy to just, like, almost feel shame for doing them. I know I've made some mistakes, and it's, I think it's really humbling to hear someone especially like you, who's like, putting in all that work and trying to educate others to also just identify I made mistakes. Like you're making mistakes out in the open, and people are giving you that feedback. And instead of just being like, I suck. I screwed up, it's like you're calling that out, and you're like, I'm learning from this. And I think that, to me, is inspiring too, is that we are all learning, and it's okay, but it's like you have those earnings and you grow from them. And I think that, to me, is just super powerful. So I want to stop and say that. So all these things I think are amazing that you're sharing. Okay. Karen Side note on your side note, make it help people see it's okay to make mistakes. We recover from them. That is such an important message in allyship, because this is a huge space. And as I said, like, if I knew what I what I didn't know at the beginning, I wouldn't have even tried to do this, this work I'm doing today. It's a huge space. We can't possibly know it all. And that means we are going to make some mistakes as we try to show up as allies and take action as allies. We're going to make mistakes. And the worst thing is, if people step back from this conversation, because once they made a mistake and they got, you know, they got chastised, or worse, they got canceled, or something like that, we need people to actually be doing this work. And when we make a mistake, we apologize, learn from it, move forward. That's it's fine. You can recover from these things. So I try to normalize making mistakes, even though I wish I made less. Oh, okay, here's another one. I once said. Good thing for an ally, a better ally to do is to give people a platform to speak so that people can get more visible, whether that is opening up your staff meeting for people who you know individual contributors to speak at, or maybe giving up your slot on a panel at a conference, so someone who doesn't normally get that chance gets to give people a platform to speak. That's good, but then I also added and attend their dry runs to give them feedback. Well, someone pointed out to me is like, Hey, Karen, maybe that's too big of an assumption that they need to get better, that they need to improve, and that they even want your feedback. Like, isn't that a position of privilege that that you. Think that they can't do a good job without you giving them feedback, you know, and fair, that is good. So I think that many people who are underrepresented and overlooked can do a stellar job at presentations. Just you know, give them this, give them the space to speak, and they they will do a stellar job. So instead of assuming that they need feedback, offer feedback if they want it like it's just a slight change in how we are thinking about things. Would you like some feedback? I'd be happy to attend your dry run if you're holding one small things like that. So again, Yep, I got to get out of that. Save your mentality of, I'm going to save someone from giving a bad presentation to how can I best support them. So if they even need the support, you know, it's like checking in to see if they even need it. So that's another kind of thing I always have in the back of my mind. None of us want to be a savior, or maybe some of us do, but we shouldn't as a better ally. We shouldn't feel that need to save someone from their demise. That's not this thing. They just need, often, to be given the opportunity to thrive. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
I I love that example too, because it's so nuanced, like, it's so tiny, like, that there's little difference of just the way you framed it, and it just invites it a lot. It just comes across completely different. And I'll think a lot of these things, that's what's happening. It's just like these words are just making people feel a little more comfortable. And I think that that piece of inclusion is so important is like, when we all feel comfortable in our roles or our companies, everything, we just thrive. We do our better work. Like, if you feel comfortable, you're not worried about like, Oh, I just feel like, frustrated with how Karen just said that word. It's like, No, you don't even think about that. It's just like, it should be more inviting. I'm curious, though, because I have run into this where you'd mentioned something to the handicap one. That's a good example, where it's like, yeah, I grew up around golf, and that was absolutely a sane and, you know, you're just like, oh, that's the way. I know it. Sometimes when you tell someone those things, like, Hey, you probably shouldn't use handicap because of the ableness language that's around it. They're like, but that's how I've always known it, you know, that's, that's just, that's, that's, you know, ludicrous. Why would we keep changing words and like, this is ridiculous. I'm curious what you would have to say to someone in that scenario if I was like, ah, that's dumb. Karen. Like, you know, I'm gonna keep saying handicap and like, I would just be curious, when you have that confrontation around something like that, how you deal with that? Yeah, Karen there's a strategy I use all the time to call people in to a touch about a topic. I say call in because it's a I'm not trying to shame or blame someone for something they just did. But so I'm not calling them out, but I'm calling them in because I want to share some insight or knowledge about what I've learned. So the strategy is seek common ground and educate. I used to think it was perfectly fine to use the word here. Here's another analysis paralysis. I used to say that all the time. It was a, you know, well accepted term. Everyone knows what it means. I used to think it was perfectly fine to say that, but I have since learned, okay, seek common ground and educate. I used to say it, but I have since learned. I've since learned it's an ableist term and so on. So we can say that, we can use that. I used to think that too, say that too, but I have since learned in so many situations that said, I also have to bring a critical eye to, well, that's probably an ableist term, a critical lens to any phrasing that people call me out on. Recently, someone said to me, one of my newsletter subscribers, I think I must have put my newsletter that had just given a fireside chat on this topic, and got this question or something like that, and they said, Karen, I've, I've learned that Fireside Chat is not inclusive. Why do you use it? And so I wrote back like, Hmm, haven't heard about that yet. And I Googled, you know, Google's your friend. Yes, I Googled it. I couldn't find anything. So I wrote back, and I said, I haven't come across that. I tried to search online for why? What have you learned? What Tell me more. And they sent me along. Jemini AI explanation of Fireside Chat not being inclusive. I mean pages Ryan, pages long, and I read through this with a critical eye, because we all have to use that with AI these days. Yes, critical lens, I want to say that again. I don't want to assume that we have to have eyes to do this. And with my critical lens, I started realizing, Wait a second, Gemini AI is hallucinating a little bit. Here, it said something like fireside chats, not inclusive, because it assumes a fireplace, and many homes don't have fireplaces, so people who lack fireplaces lack warmth in their homes and therefore won't feel included in a fireside chat. And I'm like, yeah, no, that doesn't really jive with my understanding of this. You can have warmth in your house without a fireplace. Also fireside chat, I think, has roots in, like, the dawn of person kind humankind, where we gathered around fires to share lore and stories that were important for survival. So, so I just wrote back, you know, I here, here's my problem with what Gemini, aI think it's hallucinating a little bit. And then, and this is a little snarky. I try not to be too snarky, but I couldn't resist. I put the Gemini AI response into chat bot or to ChatGPT, and said, Hey, chat GPT, this is what Gemini AI said to this prompt. What are your Can you analyze their response and let me know what you think? And chat GPT poked holes in it too, and I just, this was the snarky side. I sent it to the person, respectfully saying, Here's my problem with it. I asked chat GPT to analyze it, and here's what they said. They actually thanked me for having an AI check their AI.

Ryan Burgess
I like that. You did that too, because it is the CR it's, I don't think it's snarky. It's like, it's also just, like, testing, in some ways, the biases, or, you know, just some messed up things that happen in the AI, and we're seeing that with different models, where they're they're just giving us different answers. And I think that that's just doing your due diligence, but I love that you're like, it's snarky, but it's like, it's kind of cool. It's like, it's like, back in the day when we had, like, Google and Alexis talking to each other. I've seen videos on that and like how they would different respond. And it's like, it's interesting to check those. It's like, don't just rely on the one source Karen Exactly, exactly. So that's getting back to my original point. It's okay to do some research. If someone is telling you, Hey, I heard this isn't inclusive, or that whatever is. Let's use our brains here bring some thinking to the issue and make sure that we understand the root cause. If there is one root problem and are showing up the right way and as a result, okay, I also just have to say one thing I've learned is also like if I'm not. So I'm not living with a disability myself right now, yet I probably will in the future. Let's hope

Ryan Burgess
not right now, living strong Karen I'm not. I'm not living with a disability, and I have to make sure that I'm not, then dismissing someone, for example, who raises a concern about an ableist term who is from the disability community, like it's not me to say, Well, no, you shouldn't feel that way. No, I need to understand that's the way they feel. But it's okay to be a little critical too, and make sure that we understand that this is coming not just from, I don't know, like just a random AI that's telling you this

Ryan Burgess
fair enough, Karen, you'd mentioned mistakes in this like, I like, I said, I love that you're reflecting on mistakes that you've made and using those as lessons. I'm a huge believer in making mistakes to like, that's how we grow and like, we just need to almost celebrate those mistakes. I mean, I'm always trying to tell my kids that it's just like, hey, like, it's cool to make mistakes and celebrate those and like, how did you What did you learn from them? I think it's a great way to continue growing. You mentioned something, though, when you were talking about that, is the cancel culture. The cancel culture is something that is just out there. It's big. And I'm curious your thoughts on that. And like, Should we be treating people like that when they make a mistake, is that the right way of just completely writing them off? Like, how do you feel about cancel culture? I think it's such an interesting area, and I'm not quite sure how to dive into that one. Yeah, Karen you know, I don't know if I've I don't think I've spoken about this before. So this is fascinating to me, cancel culture. So as I step back from examples of cancel culture, specific examples, what I think I see is people who are frustrated that they can't make change. They can't get through to someone without canceling them. It's like you need to make a big deal of an incident, a situation, whatever, to draw attention to it, because that's the only way change can happen. So I think that we need to understand that's like the underlying fabric of what's going on here. I wish, though that there were better ways for making change, for getting people, giving people feedback, getting them to listen to feedback and adjust their own behavior. I recently heard from a newsletter subscriber who's pretty frustrated at their company, and especially and I'll just say it's the employee resource group leaders at their company who as soon as someone says the wrong thing or does the wrong thing, they make a huge deal out of it. In your face, calling people out kind of, kind of public feedback. And I think, I mean, I'm sure you have learned this, if not just done it intuitively, over your career in tech of just like. You criticize and private and praise in public like you know, that's how you you give people constructive feedback is, we don't want to shame and blame anyone in public. Let's do it privately so that they can process it, ask some questions, learn from it, have it be a respectful way of giving someone feedback. But there's a shift that's happened where people, I think, have just had it with and of course, this is, this is not a manager to an employee kind of relationship. This is a different dynamic in the workplace where people just want to, you know, criticize in public when people make non inclusive statements or act take non inclusive actions. And of course, what's the impact of that? Is people step back. I'm not going to get involved with that group. I'm not going to help support their cause or their their group members. I'm going to step back because less exposure means less risk for me. So I really, I haven't addressed this yet, but I really, well, actually I have, but I have maybe said it so explicitly, but like this seek common ground and educate strategy that I shared with you just a little while ago. That's a way of getting around the cancel culture. I'm not going to cancel you because you just made a mistake, but I'm going to bring you into this conversation privately and so forth. So I think we need to just provide people with more tools for driving change. Yeah. What are your thoughts, though, those, those are some of my thoughts.

Ryan Burgess
No, I like that a lot. Where it's like, especially the framing of, like, I think cancel culture, if you you want to speak to that, it's saying you're calling someone out. That's That's exactly it. It's like you're really coming at them hard, and it's public. And so that the calling out is exactly what's happening. The calling in is something more, where I'm like, seeing it as like a DM or, you know, pulling them aside. It's not public shaming. But maybe at some point, if that behavior is not changing, is that one cancel culture is like, okay, like, Do you know what I mean? Maybe that's the extreme. Is like, if you have someone in your company who's just not hearing the feedback or they're being competitive, maybe cancel culture is the right thing. I don't think it is, like, I think there's other ways, but I think it's a form of escalation. And I think too often right now is people are escalating, instead of like, starting with that calling in first. And I think that's my thinking around it. It's like, maybe try that first. I don't know if I really like the whole cancel culture aspect of it, because it's then you're just adding more negatives to the world in that sense. But I could see it if you've tried a couple things first, and then you want to go to that All right, let's, let's escalate. At that point. Maybe we need some other, you know, layers in there. But I think right now, it seems to be like cancel culture first, like someone made a mistake. Let's throw it at them. So I don't know if that's my thoughts on it, just like more of what I'm thinking I'm unpacking on that is that probably the advice there is, start with the call in, like, let's start there. Let's give people some little bit of grace that, like they may not have even known. Now, if they don't know and they continue this behavior, then what I'm not sure, because I have run into that, especially a lot of the protests we saw, you know, with George Floyd, everything years ago, I saw some pretty messed up behavior happening, just even from, you know, engineers and in the community and certain things that I was like, wow. Like, that's not good what you're saying. And so you want to try and approach it with education, but then if they're just continually being combative about it, I don't know what you do Karen at that point. Yeah. Well, one thing I want to comment on is, chances are that there are many people who have tried to do the call in and it hasn't worked, and they're frustrated, and so it's like, why try it again? I'm just going to do the call out. I'm sure that many people feel that way. Then there are going to be many people who've never tried it, but it's like, oh, this is very easy to call people out so, and I see people, other people around me doing it, so I'm just going to do it too. So anyway, I just wanted, though, acknowledge that there are probably a lot of people who are just like, I'm fed up. I It never works. So why do I bother spending my time trying to call people in and educate them? So anyway, and that's why I think that better allies should be doing this work as well, as opposed to the person who is on the receiving end of non inclusive behavior. They shouldn't be having to call people, and that's what's happening in this example with the ERG leaders, the employee resource group leaders, they are calling people out because they are on the receiving end of some non inclusive behavior. But imagine a world where there are better allies instead intercepting things, having those conversations, giving feedback afterwards. Hey, are you open to some feedback on last week's meeting? I noticed you did this and well, you know those types of actions, so Oh my gosh. I just think ally shift is the solution for

Ryan Burgess
I mean, as your. Say that. I'm like, I love it. It's a great selling point. But I'm like, Yeah, I buy that too. Because it's like, if I think about you and I having an a bit of, like, a disagreement or something, we're in a big meeting, and I say something just probably wrong. And that happens, and you call me out in front of everyone, I'm gonna be a different person, right? Like, it's like, I'm gonna feel that shame, I'm gonna feel embarrassment, all those things. And so those emotions are gonna affect how I take your feedback, versus you saying, Hey, Ryan, do you have a minute? I just, I want to talk to you. Like, I used to say handicap too, you know, I'll use that as an example. And I, since have learned that that's not the best term. Maybe we could use something better about, like, Yeah, whatever word that you want to use instead, and just explaining that to me, I'm going to be a lot more open to that than because I'm just not having dealing with those other emotions. And so I think that going straight to the cancel culture, you just, like, set a fire for all these emotions. It gets heated. And ultimately, what's the goal? I think that's what you also need to roll back on too. Is like, when we cancel someone, why it's because, ultimately, you're hoping that people are doing better and, like, being more inclusive, but that's not going to help that matter. It really isn't. Maybe it shines a light on an example of what not to do, but it's not going to help make that person be any better. It's just going to throw up more walls of emotions that they're dealing with, and maybe they react even more poorly. And then it's just, it's just spiraling. Karen Yeah, and look at our country here in the US, just we're so divided. Our country is not alone. There's a lot of division in other countries too, but just politically, we're so divided. And there are too many role models, I think that we have out there, very visible people who increase the division and divisiveness and oh my gosh, I don't want that in our workplaces everywhere. I want the role models to be people who are inclusive, who are striving to make a better environment for everyone and and bringing people together, as opposed to tearing them apart. So let's all do what we can to give that constructive feedback that we see in private. Every now and then there's gonna be a situation where it's gonna be so much harm is being done in the moment. You need to say something out loud in public, but where we can do it in private. Bring people into this conversation. Get them invested, get them excited about this. Help them learn. And we all can move forward. Life will be life will be good come by.

Ryan Burgess
I like that you mentioned, like, the companies too. And I think I've definitely seen a shift in tech companies over the past, like, I don't know, it's been three to five years even, like, where I feel like companies are investing more, like, there's actual employees, where they have, you know, diversity and inclusion groups that they've hired, to really think strategically about how a company is showing up like that. I'm curious your thoughts on that like, since you're so much closer to it, is this like a trend that's continuing, or is it Ben, is it helping companies do better? I'm just curious your thoughts on that one, since you're closer to it, Karen yeah, it seems like there It all happened in this is not true, because there are many companies that had diversity and inclusion officers or groups years and years ago, but in soon after George Floyd was murdered by police, it certainly seemed like That was one strategy companies could employ to address the racial divide. And everyone was hiring chiefs of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging whatever with the economic recession that we have been going through the last two years, roughly, many of those offices or employees were let go, not completely, not 100% but there has been a closer scrutiny on budgets, on everything, and so that we have seen some of those positions disappear, be restructured out of the organization, whatever the language is, cut and what You know, people businesses need to make business decisions. Some business leaders are better at making long term investments that are going to pay off. Some are more focused on short term. It's, you know, it's, it's all over the place in terms of priorities and leadership styles. What is more concerning to me right now is there, is there a small number of very vocal activist investors who are lobbying different companies to cancel all of their dei initiatives. And some companies are scared and are following the threats like, you know, actually paying attention to the threats and making cuts, not necessarily. Cutting everything but pruning some some activities. Unfortunately, the press takes it out of context and just like dramatizes it all like, you know, John Deere eliminates its dei programs. Well, no, they didn't, actually, they just got rid of a few things, like sponsoring parades, which I assume is pride sponsoring external events like that, a few other small things, but they still have an incredible initiative in place. I've talked to people at John Deere off the record, and they still have an incredible focus on making sure that they increase the number of women and people of color in leadership roles, for example. So there's still a lot of work going on, but these companies are so fearful of being canceled themselves. They're fearful of the press that this activist investor or investors or groups are going to make that they are basically just rolling over and like, Okay, we're going to make a few changes and announce them, and hopefully this person or this group is going to go away. I don't like that at all. I'm really frustrated that that's happening, and I would hope that leaders that are these incredible large companies have more of a backbone around doing the right thing. But anyway, that's, that's, that's what I'm concerned about. It's not like the lack of a dei office. It's more that, what are we doing to just like, you know, pay like, you know, just getting scared of the Big Bad Wolf.

Ryan Burgess
That is tough too, because, like, at the end of the day, like, especially if it's investors or things like that that are having this effect, it's like, the business at the end of the day, it's a business, it's trying to make money, right? And so that is a bottom line, important thing. And so even when they're, you know, running out of money on certain areas, or need to cut budgets, like, if they're getting threatened on that one, it's like, it kind of feels like, All right, well, I guess we cut back here and not invest in it. I also wonder, too, is it hard to to measure an ROI on it, right? Like to really understand, like, having a diversity inclusion group, whatever form it may be. Do you think it's hard for companies to measure, like, the benefits that it has? Yeah, Karen I get this question from clients as well as, can we measure the investment that we're making in Employee Resource Groups. That's another, it's very similar question like, yeah. And I advise anyone trying to measure the investment the ROI on on these initiatives is, you got to understand what the company's key performance indicators, key metrics are top, you know, top line like, what, what is the company measuring its success for? And then figure out how you tie into that. So if the company is about growth in growth in AI, for example, you know, that's like a big company. You know, imperative is we have to grow our AI strategy and staff. Well, then figure out how your dei or employee resource groups can contribute to that. There are ways. I'm not going to go through and list them, because I don't. I'm not familiar with all of the details of what you know any company is doing, but figure out how you can show how you are contributing to those larger initiatives, and have that be part of the ROI thing, the ROI equation. The other thing about ROI is, and this one's so simple, I teach it to my clients all the time as I'm trying to pitch work is if, for example, I do a group coaching program for women. And if my group coaching program is a six month program, if it helps retain just one woman in the program, just one the ROI is there because, on average, it costs, can cost between 50% to 200% of someone's salary to replace them. You do the math is the average salary in Silicon Valley. This these days, for an engineer with, you know, five to 10 years of experience, 200,000 that's like, that's maybe an easy round number to use, that it's going to cost 50% of that 100,000 to $400,000 to replace them. Where's my program fit in? What's the ROI? It's a very simple, you know, kind of math. So I really think about we can retain employees better. We can contribute to strategic initiatives the company has already valued and and show the value of these things before we

Ryan Burgess
end the episode. I want to know what's 10 years you've been doing this? It's great. What's the future look like for better allies and Karen in general? Karen I don't know. So I, my husband jokes with me all the time. It's like New Year's resolutions, like, a couple years ago, like, my New Year's resolution is not to write another book, because I'd been writing a book almost every year, and I failed. I wrote another book. I don't know if I like that. I failed. I really.