How promotions really work in tech

Jem Young
Promotions aren't necessarily based on how smart you are, which is a weird thing to say, and I'm smart, I should get promoted. Or why does that person get promoted over me? It's because they play the game better.

Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a brand new episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast. I mean, at some point in your career, you're probably gonna be dealing with promotions or wanting to get promoted. So this episode, we thought like, why not talk about our experience with getting promoted, or even just what we've seen within companies on how to get promoted? So yeah, before we dive into the episode. Let's give introductions of today's panelists. Augustus. You want to start

Jem Young
it off? Yeah? Suregusis, Jem Young, engineering manager at Netflix,

Ryan Burgess
and I'm Ryan Burgess, the host of fraud and happy hour. This episode is sponsored by Wix studio devs. This one's for you. I've got 30 seconds to tell you about Wix studio, the web platform for agencies and enterprises. So here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less on studio, integrate extend and write custom scripts in a VS code based IDE, leverage zero setup Dev, test and production environments. Ship faster with an AI code assistant, and work with Wix headless APIs on any tech stack. Time's up, but the list keeps on going. Step into Wix studio and see for yourself, maybe to start off, what are some misconceptions that are out there about how promotions work in the tech industry, promotions

Jem Young
aren't necessarily based on how smart you are, which is a weird thing to say, and I think when you think about it, you're like, Yeah, but I'm not sure that's widely known. You think I'm smart, I should get promoted. Or why does that person get promoted over me? It's because they play the game better. The manager likes them better, whatever like there's a lot of reasons people attribute to why they're not getting promoted, and it's important to recognize it's not just about being smart or building a lot of code. And as you move up the career progression, you need a lot more skills than just coding. Coding is like the baseline skill for software engineering, but to actually move up to say, like principle, you need a lot of other skills that you have to develop along the way, and hopefully you have been to get to that point. Otherwise you're going to be annoyed when you're like, oh, I can code circles around that person. Well, maybe, but coding, coding is, like, one metric, and it's, I won't say, the least important one, because that I don't want to, like, denigrate coding. But there's a lot of factors that go into someone getting promoted. And we should probably talk about manager and that not being a promotion too. That's a totally different role, but that might be a different episode. But yes, it's not enough to be smart or good at coding to get promoted.

Ryan Burgess
I think that's fair. I think that's a great call out. And just like some of those missing skills that you know, just because you're the most technical person doesn't mean that you're going to be promoted to, you know, a lead or higher up as an engineer. I think another one that I commonly hear, or maybe not, it's like, not necessarily a misconception, but that you should wait for your manager to bring up a promotion. And to me, that is like, No, do not do that. Bring it up early. Bring it up before you are ready to get promoted, so that you and your manager can be on the same page of like, what does a promotion look like? And then if it you know, if it's moving up to said level, at least, you can start to have those conversations of how you might demonstrate those skills, or what's missing to actually get to that role. So I think that one's one I would call out, yeah.

Augustus Yuan
Those are literally the biggest misconceptions I had. Like, I was like, Oh, dang those Yeah. Like, I remember when I was, like, first working in the workforce, like, I always thought, like, becoming a senior engineer, I would be, like, have the highest technical aptitude I could, like, basically build the entire app at the company that I was working at, which is just like, not the case, going through, like, the promotion process. It kind of shocked me how much of the day to day kind of changes, and this is going to be different for every company. But yeah, a lot of it isn't really just about coding. It's also about, like, road mapping, or like estimating, doing deep dives into understanding what work is involved in a project and how you can kind of sequence the work. There's a lot of like, every company is going to define it a little differently, and it was kind of shocking to me how much of it wasn't necessarily coding.

Ryan Burgess
Fair point I brought this up of a little bit about the promotion of like, bringing it up with your manager, I'd be curious to hear both of your thoughts. I think I know the answer is how I'm going to ask it. But you know how important is visibility and like, self advocacy when it comes to getting promoted. I

Jem Young
have one more thought before that one because you say something. Another misconception about promotions is. Because promotions are rarely based on potential. You already have to be exhibiting those skills for that role to some degree before you get promoted. And I think that's a misconception too, which is like, I could do it, give me the challenge, and it's like, well, no, you should be doing it already, and then someone sees that, and then you get promoted to that role. But I think that's misconception, like, you need to be acting in that role already and then get promoted. Versus I have potential, they just won't give me a shot. Which goes into your self advocacy question on, yeah, don't. Don't wait for someone to give you a shot. You should be doing that proactively. Hopefully your manager is engaging with you on those conversations. But if not, it's your career, literally, other like, people might care about it, your manager might care, should care about it, but you're the only one who lives your career. So yes, you should be advocating for yourself all the time, and if you feel like you deserve a promotion, have a real conversation with your manager, and I guarantee they'll give you honest feedback one way or the other. Yeah, I

Ryan Burgess
think that's a good call out. Is that, yeah, you do have to advocate for yourself. Jem I also, I think going back to your point, you know, just on the misconception there, I'm curious, do you think that's almost like a bad thing, though, that you have to, like, prove something that you were able to do that role, like, before being promoted?

Jem Young
Yeah, if you asked me a couple years ago before as a manager, I would have had a different answer. But now as a manager, I can see both sides of the coin. The challenge with someone advocating for themselves in order to advance their career is one, culturally that's not universal across the board, sticking, like sticking your hand up and being, I don't want to, I don't want to say, like, the loud one, but like, you know, being the nail that sticks up and or the squeaky wheel, or whatever it is, is a very American thing or a Western thing, and other cultures do not share that. So there's a lot of people are quietly awesome who don't advocate for themselves. But does that mean they're not worthy of getting promoted? No, of course not. But it happens. It happens a lot. So that whole Yeah, you need to advocate for yourself. You need to be in that role for a while. There's some bias there that I think, as leaders, we have to correct for. But it's not it's not inherent, like you just you. We have to be aware that that's happening and be more intentional about it. On the other part, on being acting in that role in advance, that's tough, because you don't know what you don't know. And that's the bigger one, where, like, if the manager is not supporting you and the company's not supporting you, then it's impossible to know what it takes to be, you know, an architect level role, or even move from junior to to a mid level role. So, yeah, I can go on, but I have plenty of thoughts on this topic. If you can't tell. I

Ryan Burgess
mean, I think it's tricky. It's bothered me a bit is, like, I think you have to demonstrate some of the skills, right? I don't know what the like percentage of it is, but like, you have to be demonstrating that, yeah, you're on the right trajectory to be promoted. And I think some of it should be that you can demonstrate some of it while doing that role. Like, I think there needs to be this bit of a balance, because there's also the affordance that's given to someone who's interviewing, right? So we're talking about someone getting promoted internally in the company. They've maybe been there a year or two, or who knows how many years that they've been at the company. And it's really easy for us, especially as managers, to say, like, Oh, I know that person. I don't think they can do the job, or they can do the job. You've spent so much time with them to understand that. But an interview candidate, you might have, like, 45 minutes with them, you know, the like, one on one, and then you've also probably thrown them through other panel interviews to to assess. But it's, it's only a few hours of time that you've spent with this person, and then you're deciding, can they do this role? And some of it, you're just, yes, I've got some signals that they can do the job. But some of it, you're just hoping that they do right? Like you're just taking the bet on them. And I think sometimes that internally, the promotion people aren't taking enough of a bet on someone right. Like they're just, they're like, oh, no, you need to check all the boxes before being able to do that. And I think there's this weird dynamic that gets kind of comes to play there, and almost gets penalized the person for being at the company a while when they could have, you know, just gone and hired someone else. Or, I don't know there's, it's just, it's frustrating sometimes to see that I

Augustus Yuan
have a bunch of thoughts on this. I feel pretty fortunate that I've had some amazing managers, and I feel like, you know, I've definitely been there where I'm like, I feel like I'm Senior. If I was just given a chance, like, promoted me, I could demonstrate it. And I've had these discussions with, like, my managers, and I think amazing managers will really build that trust with you to say, to show that they have your career as, like, a strong focus for them, and they just want to help you, like, get there. And this is something that I think was a big shock for me. Like, to be honest, promotion is in some ways, kind of a political thing, and really. There's not much difference, like being promoted versus not promoted, other than pay. And sometimes you don't even get paid. Shockingly, sometimes you don't, yes, which, you know, you should always, like, you know, push for yourself at the end of the day. It's a title. And what I loved about my managers, how they would go about it, is to them, they would always tell me, I see it. I can see you being a senior. We just need to make sure everyone else can see it too. But yeah, like, you don't want to be in a position where you get promoted and no one agrees with it. I feel like that is a terrible scenario that I definitely didn't think about. Like it just creates bitterness it. It also creates just a lot of like attention towards you, possibly not delivering to what people may expect of what a senior is. It's kind of like what I said, like, it's, it can be a little political, because you want to build that trust with everyone, like, Hey, I am a senior level at this company, and you can trust me to deliver on what is expected of a senior. So I totally get why, like, you should be demonstrating that just a little bit before you actually move into that role, you know, because that's a way for you to build trust with everyone, to show Hey, this person's already demonstrating this. I think this is also where, like, certain companies might have different processes, like there's a panel that has to sign off on it, versus maybe some companies, they maybe it's entirely up to your manager. I don't know, but it's really about like making sure all the people are can see it.

Ryan Burgess
Well said, Augustus, I think that's even something to really talk through too. Is each company does it differently. What's even different between a large company and a small company like there's companies like Google, they will do rounds of promotions, and you have to put together a full on package that is reviewed by others, and so you are having to advocate for the work that you've done and really spell out what the impact has been happened. But not all companies are doing that. That could just be that your manager has to say, like, Yep, so and so is now a senior engineer, because they've demonstrated X, Y and Z, and there's not much of a process for it, but at some larger companies, there's, there's a pretty big process that goes into it, and there's a lot of work that goes into a promotion too, right? Like, even what you were saying Augustus, I like, what you called out is that the people around are like, yeah, that that makes sense. Because you almost want the people around, if you're a manager promoting someone, you also want all the people around going, Yeah, that makes so much sense. I almost want to hear people like, what? Oh, they weren't promoted before. Like, you know, you want it to just sound like, yeah, this makes a ton of sense, because it becomes political, and it becomes harder for the individual if they are promoted too soon, yeah.

Jem Young
And Augustus, you bring up a really good point on scrutiny when you move into a higher role. It is there. I tell people that often, they're like, oh, I want to be x level. I'm like, Are you sure? Because you have it pretty good right now. And when you move to that level, the expectations change, not just from your team, but from others as well. They're like, oh, this person says they're a senior software engineer. They should be doing X and they're not. And sometimes people don't, it's not something you necessarily want. And so I'd say, In Defense of not getting promoted too soon or too early, or being intentional about when you do that, something you should consider is the higher up you go, the more expectations people have of you, which is totally fair. And I talk to when I can try to mentor people, and they're like, oh, I want to move. I can't wait to move from junior to x level, it's like, no, no, no, Junior, you have a lot of leeway. You can ask questions that maybe should be a little obvious to you, or you can make mistakes, and we're like, oh, yeah, totally expected at this level. But once you move up, you don't have as much leeway, because we have expectations of you, and you know, here's how you need to perform, and things like that. So I've seen people go wrong on that. I've seen questionable titles like, I think seniors handed out pretty, pretty casually these days, when, as an industry, we haven't defined it out well, it's pretty much like you're either junior or senior. From what I've seen, I've seen very few people outside of like, you know, the Amazons and Googles who have a very structured process. You aren't either junior or they're senior. And to me, that's when I talk to people and it says, Oh, you're a senior software engineer. One question I ask people when I interview them is, like, what does it mean to be a senior software engineer? And I hear a lot of answers that show that it's just the title of them. There's no weight behind it. That's the consequence of, I think, getting promoted too fast when you haven't had time to, like, grow into that, and you're just looking for the next title. Yeah, I guess the whole takeaway of that is Be wary of getting promoted too fast and make sure you know that's the right move for you, because it has a bigger impact than possibly you're aware of.

Ryan Burgess
So. Such a good call out gem. It made me think of like, maybe even a misconception is that you need to get promoted, right? I feel like more often than not, people are usually chasing that next step. It's natural. It's like, you know, what can I do to be better on my you know, what I'm doing? How do I grow? You know, getting larger comp salary, that that is always nice, and so, you know, you're always kind of striving for that, but something you said really hit me too, gem was, like you're saying that the expectations change, which I don't disagree. Absolutely they do, but the role might change too, right? Like you might be doing something completely different than what you really love doing. And you know, Jem, I'll even call it something that you've said to me, is, this is while I was managing you, is like, there was this point where you were coding heads down all the time, you know, doing feature work, and then you started to do more, like architectural like more platform work. And you're like, Ryan, I'm coding less. I'm like, yeah. I mean, you're also, you know, you're helping set the tone for other engineers thinking about it more holistically of what needs to happen. And you're writing a memo for that. You're not doing the actual code. And so I think it worked out in the right way. Jem is that you've kind of headed down the management side of things, but that absolutely is a pivotal moment for a lot of engineers where, like, I don't want to do that. I just want to be like, doing what I love doing is building, and I don't want to do all that extra stuff. And that extra stuff is sometimes absolutely a requirement or an expectation, but yeah, it also might be something you're like, I don't want to do that, and so maybe a promotion isn't the right thing, and that's okay.

Augustus Yuan
Can I just add that there's this extra stress level on top of, like, imposter syndrome, not being able to ask any question you want, feeling a little judged, but like, as I became more senior, like I felt like I had a lot less control on the execution. You know, I'd give high level estimates, but, you know, you're not always going to be working on everything. You might just spec it out high level, you know, there's always some lower level implementation details that might take longer than expected. And I have a lot of respect for engineering managers that have that's basically like, they have to go through this all the time. Like, I just got, like, a taste of it, and some projects, and it is, like, super nerve wracking, and to, like, sometimes be even evaluated performance wise, on it. You know, I was just gonna

Ryan Burgess
ask you that, were you per you know, are you getting evaluated on your estimates? Well? And,

Augustus Yuan
you know, it's like everybody wants to deliver quick. So sometimes you might pitch, okay, hey, you know what? I get it. We need to hit this date for XY reason. Maybe we can cut some of the scope out and run with it. And then, you know, during implementation, maybe something comes up. Maybe you realize that's you couldn't just do that. You just kind of offered it as a suggestion, but it's kind of held to you. And I don't know if I would say, like, I was evaluated in a poor way or or people have been evaluating a poor way for it, but I feel like it's just this extra layer of stress that you have to manage. It was something that I didn't really expect. That's,

Ryan Burgess
oh, that's fair. I think in another thing, you said that actually, I want to call out you're saying, like, as a manager, having to do that all the time, I, like, actually judge managers who are estimating for their teams without at least talking to their teams. I don't care how good or technical you are, but you don't know all the details. And I've had managers they estimate for you, and then you're stuck with that estimate. And there's a lot of complexities to, like, work through that weren't necessarily thought through. And as me, as a manager, I'm thinking, Well, yeah, I don't know all the details I need to lean on my team is like, here's what we need to do, here's what we're trying to achieve. You know, let's talk through that. And maybe I'm the one to take back the estimate and stand by that estimate, but I am absolutely including my team in on that. I'd be curious from both of you, you know, as we talk about, you know, working to get promotions and everything like that, I'd love to hear some like strategies or tips for someone who maybe feels stuck in their current role and wants to advance but doesn't really know where to start. Maybe they haven't even had that conversation with their manager. I mean, that's one tip, is go do that. But I'd be curious some other tips from both of you. Of like, yeah, What would someone do in that scenario?

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, I have some thoughts. Yeah. Definitely. Like, talk to your manager. And I want to, like, re bring up something Ryan mentioned, like, for some companies, especially like Amazon, I can speak from direct experience, like getting promoted is something you have to do very intentionally, and you have to plan for it's not something you can just deliver well, and then, boom, you're going to get promoted. Like, it's like there is a process, and a good manager is going to walk you through what that process is. You know, there's like, a packet, there's artifacts that you have to keep track of. And I'll be honest, I've heard horror stories of people who are like, Hey, I've been working for a while. I feel like I'm ready for the next step to be like, great. Here's the packet, here's what you need to fill out. And they say, Oh, don't remember what I did for some of these projects, you have to start over. You have to or do your best try to fill it out. I'll try to help too as a manager, but it's like, it's a very intentional process you need a plan for. So definitely, like work with your manager on it. But I think outside of that, one thing that's super helpful is just reaching out to other senior engineers who've been through the process. And I think that is, like, such a good way to, like, understand what the expectations are, especially like someone who's gone through it recently, they can kind of tell you, okay, hey, like, this is what happened, and this was what was a shock for me, etc. And you can really understand what the expectations are, you know, I think that's something you really need to prepare yourself for, and more often than not, you're going to have to start demonstrating those qualities, not just to your manager, but to the rest of your team. And I think a good team is going to support you. So I don't think you need to be afraid of that, but I definitely think it's worth like reaching out to other peers within the company. Yeah, that's,

Jem Young
that's, that's all that's good advice. And I guess as you you trigger a thought, which was a promotion, is a signal, not just for you to the broader company and say, like, this person's has the skills to to operate at this level. It's also a signal to other people at maybe lower levels that, hey, here's how you should behave, and here's the actions that you should take, behaviors you you should emulate, emulate to be at this level, and this person demonstrates that. And that's broadly why there's processes at these large companies like your Amazons, your Google. It's because we, in general, like big enterprise companies, want to be consistent in how these people show up. And that's really what the packet's about, is like, are they, are we meeting this consistency bar across the company? Granted, there's so much politics and nuance into that, which I don't think we want to get into this episode, but that's a general idea on why some processes are so heavy. Is like, try to be consistent versus I've been at some companies where, like, Oh, don't talk to that guy. He's a total jerk, but he's this high level software architect. And I was like, Well, why are they at that level? If they're behaving that way? Oh, they're super smart. And I was like, well, that that's a broken process. You know, if, if you want to keep that person around, that's fine, but don't put them in the senior position where they can influence other people. So I want it. Promotions depend on company size, but generally smaller company is going to be less consistent across the board. Sometimes people get promoted because you've just been the person at the company for six months, and we just hired 50 new people, you're now promoted. Congratulations. Or enterprise where it's it's definitely more of a process, and there's really clear tracks you need to follow, but number of advice you really need to work with your manager. The manager is the one advocating for you. When someone's like, well, I saw Ryan do this thing in Slack, what's up with that? And they're like, Oh, actually, here's what happened. Or, you know, I haven't really seen them deliver on this. What's going on? Oh, here's what happened. Your manager is the one fighting for you. And that's, that's a lot of work people don't see. And when it comes to, like, compensation, setting and promotions is the managers, they're advocating for you. So if you're not working with your manager, you think they're holding you back, or you have ill will, you need to sort that out, because it's almost impossible to get promoted without your manager backing. That's just how it goes, and that's our job too. That's that's our job as leaders to to make that happen. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
what happens when your manager is not do advocating for you or isn't trying to help you with a promotion. Because that can definitely happen. That

Jem Young
happens far too often. When I hold office hours, that's a common question. It's like, hey, I want to move up. My manager has no interests or doesn't see that as part of the role, which is a shame, but you know, there's nothing we can do about that in that moment. So Augustus had some really good advice earlier, which is like talk to other senior engineers and talk about their roles and their expectations, their their behaviors. What does it mean to them to be senior software engineer? Emulate those skills as best you can. But unfortunately, there's no really good ending here. If your manager is not going to back your promotion, you need to find a new manager, so switch teams to someone that recognizes your talents, or find a new company. And that's that's kind of it. Unfortunately, what I don't recommend is trying to go above your manager's head and say, like, Hey, I'm operating this level. My manager is not supporting you. It's just not a good move. It won't help you in the long run, even if you feel like righteous and justified, it's just not going to end well, generally speaking, even if you're 100% correct, but on the way out the door, then they ask you why you're leaving for a role that's two positions higher than one, when you had you say, like, well, I did all this stuff and I talked to my manager, and they just weren't there for me. So this company clearly doesn't value my talents. Peace, and to me, that's the that's the best way to leave is the. Them longing. They're like, No, no, come back. Yeah, if your manager is not working with you or doesn't value it, you know, talk to them. Try to try to work with them as best you can. But sometimes you just have to make the move, which is switch teams or switch companies, which is always

Ryan Burgess
such a bummer too, because it is so important to, like you said gem, having that trust with your manager, and, you know, building that rapport with your team, building that trust, all those things, guess what? Now you got to start all over. Like, I mean, at the end of the day, you're right. Jem is, like, if the manager's not going to help you, it's kind of the buck stops there. It doesn't matter, really what you do. And so making a move to another team or another company, it's kind of the only option. It just sucks, because it is like you put in a lot of this time to demonstrate those skills, and then you have to start all over again. We haven't

Jem Young
done an episode on it yet, but we should. We should do an episode on like, the impact of a bad manager, because the impact of a bad manager is so broad and long and deep, and it's just like a small instance like that, like that, like holding someone back who has the skills to have a bigger impact on the company that like that could be, you know, $100 million decision. How do you know, if that person does move up, they have this big impact with their like in a more context and freedom they have in this role, but by not moving someone up who's ready like you're not only stifling their career, which sets off, you know, their life, but it impacts the company as well, and it's just yeah there. And there's so many little decisions managers can make like that that have such an outsized impact when they're not good managers. So if any manager listening, you should be having growth conversations with your team regularly, I say at least once a quarter. Or you can do it once a month, but that's pretty heavy depending your workload, but minimum, once a quarter, you should be having growth conversations with every person on your team, talking about their short, medium and long term career ambitions and like how you can help them. And that's just baseline. That's not even being a good manager. That's just baseline. I'm disappointed in when I hear people that have managers that don't do that for them because that I don't know. It's not a whole lot to ask. Okay, so box over, you can tell I feel very passionately about growth and and this process. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
you're so right, Jem And I think maybe this is also where some of the larger companies are process. Heavy companies can be really beneficial, because those managers, like, hopefully, are being told it's promotion time and you need to go through, you know, like there's time allotted for that and that there's you're almost asked to do it right, versus having, sometimes where companies it is on the manager to think about their team and do that on their own. And if they're not, and no one's holding them accountable, well, they're not going to do it right. That's sucks. And so I think sometimes the process can at least hold people accountable to that. And so that can be a benefit for having some sort of a process in place. I just

Augustus Yuan
wanted to, like, one point in defense of managers, and this is something that I've heard, you know, and like, I said, and like, like, we've talked about, every company's different, but one reason a manager could be denying you promotion. It might not even be that they don't think you're a senior. It just might be that your team doesn't have the headcount for senior because, and this was like something that I was like, Wait, this makes so much sense, but I'm not thinking on that level. But it's like, there's only so much work for a senior. For every team like, you can't have like, 20 senior engineers, you know, it's, it's like, and there's not 20 senior engineers worth of work for the team. This conversation of changing teams is something that really often comes up as you go through your career within a company, because maybe the most technical, most technical, challenging work that requires senior engineers is somewhere else, and could be within the company. It could be outside. But I think it's something that you really do need to ask yourself, like, how important it is for you to be growing, becoming a senior within the company, or just or just growing. Technically, you have to consider all these kind of kinds of things. I

Ryan Burgess
think that's such a good call out Augustus. Like, there has to be a business need for that role too, and that can suck too, right? Because the individual is hopefully likely ready for that promotion and can do the role. But you can't just put someone in the role, per se, like, it's like, you know, how many leads Can you have on the team, or how many architects? Like, you know, everyone plays a role, same with a manager like, I know Jem mentioned, it's not a promotion, it's not it's a different role, but it's a role on the team. And you can only have so many managers on the team, or else you just have, like, a manager managing one person. Like that doesn't make any sense. So I think that that's a really good call out too. Is also understanding, even talking with your manager or higher ups, whatever it is, what's the likelihood that there is going to meet that a need for those roles, and if there's not that, are there other teams that may need that in the future or right now? Would I be. Ready, like these, it goes back to that point. Talk to your manager, have these conversations. Could be a year before you're even thinking about getting promoted. It doesn't have to be like, hey, next week, I'd like to get promoted, because that it takes time, and you need to be on, you know, the radar of the leader at that point, because

Jem Young
I love you. Brought brought up the business. Because, like, it is a business. We're not doing this for free. And yeah, sometimes there's, there's no justification for, like you said, having three architects on the team, it just doesn't make sense from a business perspective. But also financially, there are budgets that people need to hit sometimes. And it's not the, it's not the reason you want to hear that you can't promote somebody, but that's sometimes the reason too. Maybe they just don't want to pay that extra again. It's not good or bad. It's just that's business. It's unfortunate when it happens. But hopefully you have your this transparency with your manager to just be upfront about it, like, Hey, I know you want to become a manager, but there's, it's unlikely there's any roles opening up anytime soon. I will help you look around like Ryan was saying, I'll help you look around the company, but sometimes it's just not there. And if moving up is really important or changing roles, that's something you have to consider for your own career. But again, the overall theme is like, it's your career. You have to own it. Your manager will help you, and they should help you, but at the end of the day, like you have to advocate for yourself, and sometimes you have to make a hard decision, and that's that's just how it is. Just made

Ryan Burgess
me think of like, we've talked about some of the things that people can do to try and work on getting promoted. I'd be curious to know, what are some things, or like, mistakes that you've seen people make trying to get promoted, because I think that can be a negative too. Is like, if you try too hard. There can be, sometimes, some negative things that come about. And so I'm curious some of the ones that you all have seen. Okay,

Augustus Yuan
I just want to call out to something Jeb mentioned on another episode. Promotion driven, development, yes, yes. I hate to admit I didn't when Jeb said it, I knew it, but I didn't want to believe it was a thing, but it completely is, I and I think it's, it's not necessarily bad, but it can be bad, and you don't want so I'll just speak from experience, like I have seen people and, you know, it's kind of like what I mentioned. It's a very intentional process, some artifacts lost because due diligence of not keeping track something. Now they have to kind of make up for it, and trying to force projects, force technical projects that accommodate some business need for some arbitrary reason, and it will optimize whatever. And it doesn't really do much, but it looks good on paper. I think you can do that, but I'll, I will be 100% honest. It's not like people don't notice, and I think it can really hurt your credibility, you know, like, if you really try to push for those kinds of projects, just something to be kind of cognizant of. I would love to hear other people's thoughts, yes,

Jem Young
promotion driven development, I guess, in defense of that, sometimes that's just the way the game is played, especially at bigger companies, is if that's what the company values, is like, seeing these things in your promotion packet, then, like, the only way to move up is to do the things the company values, and that's something to be aware of. It when you join a company is like, what's their stance on growth, promotion? What do they consider a terminal level, as in, most people will not, will not reach beyond this level. Having understanding of that can help inform your career decisions as well. But along, I guess the corollary to go with promotion driven development or is people that are only seek to do highly visible things. Oh, I want to be the one to be the one to send the launch email with my name on it, or let me make sure only My name's on that Doc, even though a bunch of people contributed to it. It's also obvious too to other people as well. And again, in these meetings where we talk about, oh, should this person be promoted or not, these are questions that other managers ask, do they mentor people? Do they pick up the trash, as in, like, just fix things and not talk about it. Do they update the documentation? Do they do things that aren't visible? Because those are the more important things, because that's how you behave. And I've seen people chasing the wrong thing, like, Oh, look at me. Look at these. This projects I've done that's like, cool. What about these other stuff? Like, that's, that's the thing. I want to see them to move on to the next level. I've definitely seen a lot of, I can't think of a proper phrase for it, a lot of fluff, but there's nothing behind it, like there's no substance. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
I like the like, you know, being visible taking credit, or just like, you know, making sure that your name is visible all the time. That kind of fits into that promotion driven development. The another one, too, that I was thinking about was just even the added complexity I've definitely seen where engineers will take a problem and almost make it more complex. It might not be like, Oh, that will get me promoted, but it's some of those things where you're like, Oh, this is a big system that needs to be built. When it's like an. Yeah, actuality, it's like, does it need to be built? Could we, you know, leverage something open source? Could we buy something? I think sometimes people head down the direction of they need to build something, and it's this big, shiny new thing when something may already have existed. But hey, I'm gonna go build a new one, because that will get me promoted.

Augustus Yuan
One that I think is worth mentioning. I think it's like a common mistake, but I think it's something definitely to consider is, like, you know, feedback is so important, and at least at Amazon Twitch, like, feedback is a huge part of the promotion process. Like, what feedback have you gotten from people? And I would say, like, a mistake is not considering the feedback of stakeholders outside of the technical like, if you're an engineer, right, like product managers, your front end designers, the feedback they give is, like, super good. Like, because, you know, they're, they're the ones that, like, you might not work with all the time, but they work in a different job function, and definitely work with your manager to understand the weight of feedback. I know, like certain companies, they place a lot of weight on people outside of your job function. They're the ones that are outside of your team, and quite honestly, probably a little less biased up to knowing you and working with you, and those little Interactions matter.

Ryan Burgess
It's like collaboration, right? Like, you need to be a strong collaborator. I think that that is so important. Because, you know, when I think of the engineering function, like you talked about Augustus, is like you're working with maybe design, or you're working with maybe another engineering function, like back end, if you're a front end or whatever, like, just doesn't really matter so much, but you are working with other functions to make something to make make something happen, have impact for the business. And if you're not a strong collaborator, well, that's not going to work well for anybody. But it also doesn't look great for your team at all either. It's like, oh, they don't. They're not good collaborators. And you know, it gets lumped down to that, like individual sometimes can bring down the rest of the team. So I think that's a really good call out is what you're saying. You have to be a strong collaborator. We've spoken a lot about how important the relationship and trust is with the manager, like I think that's come up 100 times in this episode, so very important for your career to have that trust. But what happens when the manager leaves right? Maybe they get promoted to a new role. There's there's many reasons why that something can change where it's no longer your manager that can cause a lot of panic, because now you're probably starting at Ground Zero with a new manager. And I'd be curious to know, like, what's some advice that you would give someone who's going through that, and that maybe was on the cusp of getting promoted, they're very, you know, getting close to the next level? What kind of advice would you give that person?

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, I'll be honest. I've been through this, and it, it can be a little shocking. Well, first of all, you know, hopefully you're keeping good relationships with everyone you've worked with. You know, I think, like, don't, don't underestimate how important it is to have, like, a strong network of people you can rely on. And you know, if you really enjoyed working with your manager, you know, keep in touch with them. So that's number one, you know, it's not like, Oh, you're leaving. Screw you, you know. Like, it shouldn't be like that. You know, definitely, like, keep in touch with them. You know, for me, when this happened to me, I've had some managers, you know, and you know, maybe they leave, change job functions, if they change teams within the same company, I feel most companies will have some process where they can still weigh in. That's that's been my experience. So that is far less of a scary position. You know, they're still within the company, maintain a good relationship, but if they leave the company, I think it's very important that you get some time to sit down with them and say, Hey, is there anything you can do to leave some notes to kind of support my promotion packet, I feel like a broken record saying every company is different, but if your company allows it, like, they will still take the weight of notes from people who have left the company. So, like, but it's very crucial you take that time to say, Hey, I would really like to sit down with you. There's anything you can do, like, even if it's just a note, some feedback about my performance, about some projects that we worked on together that is, like, super, super helpful and out and all that, like context or work that you've done with them, it doesn't just get lost. Another thing that's really important that generally happens, but you want to make sure maybe you can have that conversation is, when you transition to a new manager, hopefully that manager that's leaving can kind of hand that hand that promotion process off, so it doesn't just get kind of lost. That's that's actually what happened for me when my manager left, they made sure to sit down with the new manager and say, Hey, this is the state of Augustus promotion packet. Here's where it's at. At. Here's where he needs to work on. And here are some projects that I think would be really good in helping demonstrate these qualities. Feel

Jem Young
like this is like a less positive episode, because it's, it's just reality. And if your manager leaves when you're close to a promotion or have been working with them for it, it just sucks. There's just no way around that. Because, as we've talked about it, is it is a value relationship with that person. Ideally, you two have been working together in some sort of document that, like, has all your artifacts and areas of growth and how you've demonstrated that in the past, and it's been working for a while. So you're not just left with, oh, it was their word that, that this person's really good, but, yeah, if they're leaving the company, you can ask them to, like, put in a good word for you, but it's really hard, because they're a person too, and they have their own career in their own life, and promotions are a lot of lot of process and a lot of writing. So that doesn't always happen. Yeah, I think my advice is, write stuff down in advance. If you're working with somebody, even if you're like, they're gonna stay here forever, have that documented just in case. Just call it insurance. It's just good to have it down anyways. But, yeah, it's just not it's just a bad scenario. It's just bad, bad luck. I

Ryan Burgess
think maybe playing off both of your pieces of advice, like, I think that if you weren't thinking ahead gem, like, if I wasn't thinking ahead and writing it down, and I was maybe in Augusta situation where the person's leaving, I might even try and make it easier for them. Is like, Hey, I'm going to write down what you and I've talked about, and, you know, I'll document it all, you know. I just want you to make sure that we're both aligned, that that's what you know has been said, and that we're thinking through and so that you're, you're, you're making it easier for them, at least, if you really want to make sure that that's documented, that could be a step too. But, yeah, it's it is a tough situation that that is a really tough one, hopefully that manager is documenting and advocating for you even while they're out the door. All right, well, that's probably a good time for us to dive into picks in each episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast, we like to share things that we found interesting. Want to share with all of you. Augustus, what do you have for us this episode?

Augustus Yuan
Oh, yes, let me just get it up. Yes, I have two picks today. One is a japanese.jp at I don't know if that's like his Japanese name, so if I, if I am destroying that, I am so sorry, but it is just super cool. Um, he, he creates these little like showcases for like, different things he's playing around with. Just some of the stuff he creates is, like, so fascinating. Um, so I just linked his website. Like, he like, really, like, does some cool things with, like, reimagining, like, how some navigation items look like and how they like come out, blow out. I don't know if I would say it's like the most like, usable, friendly, but it's just really cool to see this kind of creativity come out. So I think it's worth checking out. And then my second pick is a YouTuber. His name is Punisher. I've been getting kind of interested in, like ve development. You know, there's, like, a lot of 3d websites like that use three js. And Punisher, he's been in the YouTube game for quite a bit as a 3d artist, and he teaches them how to create 3d artworks using blenders and Unreal Engine. And he hosts this contest where he basically gives you a template and you can just try to make whatever you want. He has these really, really cool compilations of all these people. Some people just start like, just start learning right there. And some people are very, very seasoned, developed. And I just thought it was super cool, worth checking out. Does sound

Ryan Burgess
cool? Jim, what do you have for us? Sorry, I

Jem Young
was playing around with that, that website. Yeah, that is, that is super cool. Like, just raw creativity. Like, that's what the internet's for. Be stuck here for a while. Great link. I guess I have two picks. The first one is, is an article on Tom's Hardware. Kind of humorous, but it's about a mouse jiggler guide. So there are companies that track whether or not you're online or whatever, and you know, is your butt in the seat, and they use that by, you know your Slack icon or teams icon, whatever, but if you jiggle your mouse, it looks like you're online all the time. So this whole article is different ways, whether it's hardware or software. Of just jiggling your mouse and making people think you're you're working that's a whole episode of itself. But it's pretty funny that that this exists, so it's a real thing. My second pick is a movie on Netflix called Atlas, starring Jennifer Lopez and a few other people, a little campy, a little cheesy, but the special effects on it were really impressive. I did not have high hopes for this movie going in, but I gotta say the special effects were. Phenomenal, like excellent use of CGI, the storyline. You know, it's okay, but I to me, I think the battles and giant robots clashing with each other makes up for it. So kind of unexpected delight there. That movie's called Atlas, and it's on Netflix. Those are my picks, right?

Ryan Burgess
I have two picks as well. My first one is going to be a TV show. It is not Netflix. It is Apple TV. It is called presumed innocent. It's a really interesting story, like really well done, just about a lawyer who ends up basically being on trial for murder, and he ends up representing himself. It starts Jake Gyllenhaal, so he's the one on on trial for the murder of his girlfriend. It's a good story. I highly recommend checking that one out. It's really well done. And then my second pick, funny enough is chat GBT for the Mac they now have a dedicated Mac app, and it's, you know, to me, I'm like, the browser works just fine, but it has been really nice to just be able to now switch to the app really easily. I use chat GBT so much that I'm like, oh yeah, this is just nice and easy. So I've only had it installed for like a day or two, and it's I've really enjoyed it already. So if you use chat GBT heavily, I would probably recommend installing that and trying that instead of just going to the browser. Well, thank you all for listening to our episode on promotions. Hopefully some of this advice helps you get a promotion, or else figure out maybe leaving the company or finding a new role. But yes, any last words, Augustus and gem Ding, ding,

Jem Young
good luck on our promotion.

Augustus Yuan
Too. Good. I like that. I.