Normalize taking a break

Ryan Burgess
Well, welcome to a brand new episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast. When you're feeling burnt out or needing a change, it's often very hard to know what to do next. One solution. It might be a very privileged solution, but one solution is take a sabbatical. Take a break, leave your job. In this episode, we are joined by Jennifer to talk with us about what it's like to take a break and not work. It is somewhat abnormal, and I think I feel like we should normalize this, and we'll, we'll be going into this topic really well, and being able to share the pros and cons and what it's really like to leave your job and do nothing, and that's what we're going to be covering in this episode. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us. I know you and I met a few weeks back, and you'd found out I was taking a break from left Netflix and wasn't working, and you just had some amazing questions for me. And then it came up that, oh, yeah, like, I did that. And so some of the things that you were asking me, I'm like, How does she know what that feeling's like? So it was really cool to get your perspective on it, and I'm so excited to do this episode. But yeah, before we begin, love to hear a brief introduction of who you are, what you do, and what your favorite Happy Hour beverages. Jennifer Tieu So thank you, Ryan for having me. My name is Jennifer. I'm from Houston, Texas. I'm a front end developer at a web three agency called Halden, and my favorite Happy Hour beverage is probably a mask, Moscow Mule.

Ryan Burgess
It's a good choice. I feel like that's a pop Yeah, it's a popular one that pops up on this, like podcast. I feel like just recently, in the last couple episodes, I've had a few people say that one, it is a solid drink. All right. Well, let's, let's dive in. Thanks so much, Jennifer for joining us. Before we dive in, let's give introduction of the panelists, Cole, it's, it's you and me, but Cole, you want to start off?

Cole Turner
Hi everyone. My name is Cole. You might formally know that I've worked at Netflix, but as of today, I am starting my first day of sabbatical and I'm super excited to be here to talk about that and learn from Jennifer and Ryan about how they have been making it work. Right

Ryan Burgess
on. Yeah, I feel like we're all coming at this at different points. Jennifer took her break and is back to work, and I'm, I'd say, middle the way, I still feel like I've, you know, I'm still still targeting that year. And we'll talk about, like, how sometimes that can be hard too. And then, yeah, Cole, you're brand new to this, so it'll be really interesting. But yes, I'm the host of front end happy hour. I'm Ryan Burgess. Let's dive in. Jennifer Cole, I guess myself too. What inspired you to take the break in the first place? Yeah,

Jennifer Tieu
so I think at the time, I just started not feeling very happy where I was working, and it was my first software developer job, so at the time, I was, like, very happy I made the career transition. I feel like they're first starting out or transitioning to tech like that first job was just, like, very exciting. That excitement wore off over time, and I feel like I didn't really notice it, like day by day, kind of just started accumulating until eventually I was just like I woke up and I just was not feeling very happy anymore. And, you know, I journal like almost every day, and I actually, you know, journaled throughout the whole break, and so, like, I was reading back, like my old entries, and I could just progressively see myself getting unhappier and unhappier, and then, you know, it didn't really occur to me until it was feeling worse that it was like, Okay, I'm not happy where I am. I don't know why I'm trying to, like, make it work, you know, I'm trying to, like, think positively, you know, try different things. But it seemed like I couldn't shake off that feeling, and eventually I thought about, you know, what, maybe they should take a break. And that was terrifying, because I never done that. I didn't know anyone else who did that, and it never occurred to me to, like, leave a job, because I feel like I worked really hard out of college, you know, like, grinded, and I, you know, put in a lot of work. So the thought of just, like, not working and leaving, I was like, what was that? And of course, I turned to the internet because there was no one else to go to, and the Internet has a lot of opinions. Um, I read a lot of Reddit posts, and a lot of people like, don't do it. Don't take a break. Um, I think the scariest part was, like, I was taking a break without a job lined up. Lined up. So that was, like, that was different, right? And so while device still get all these forums or, like, don't do it without taking a break. Like, don't do it, it's like, I get a job first. Like, people I talk to really should get a job first. And I was like, okay, yeah, no, that's fair. That's the advice. But I think it was almost a point where, like, I was getting unhappy, and I was like, Okay, I feel like I need to leave now, and I don't think I can wait for, like, another job lined up. So, like, they had, like, some extra money to set us I had set aside to kind of give me the cushion, and then that from there, you know, after, like, talking to some friends and really thinking about it, kind of wish inclusions, like, Okay, this is, this is what I want to do. Like, I need to take a break. Needed to just figure out what I want, what I want to do, because it feels like I just didn't know. And it just kind of morphed into this feeling of, like being lost and unhappy, and like, when you're in loss and unhappy, like, how can you do well at your job? And I wanted to do well at my job, but I can't do that anymore if I'm, like, feeling this way. So I was like, I don't want to be at a point where I'm doing so bad at work that they would like, let me go. Like, that's the last thing I wanted. Like, I should give my best, and I felt like I couldn't give my best anymore. So that's not fair for them or me. So I was like, I think I should leave, because I don't feel like I want to be here, and I think someone who wants to be there deserves to be there. So that's kind of what led me to take my break. I loved

Cole Turner
how you said that, because not only are you seeing all the things that are affecting you, but you also talked about Jennifer, how you leaving to find out what's best for you, also gave somebody else an opportunity to find what's best for them. And so, in a way, you're helping yourself. You're helping others too. And I like that,

Ryan Burgess
yeah, and I think it's so powerful. Like, I love the journaling aspect of it too, and just being able to, like, look back on it, that is something I've never done. Like, I've never really taken stock of, like, how I feel, or like, what that day to day looks like, or like writing a journal, and I love that that is just, like, such a great way to, like, have the data to say, like, it's not working anymore. But I definitely felt something similar. Like, just hearing you talk through that is like, I, you know, being at Netflix, that was honestly one of my all time favorite jobs. There were so many amazing things that I loved about it, all the amazing people I worked with, the culture, just so many great things. And so it wasn't like I was like, hey, this company sucks. I need to get out the door. But things were changing. Like, Netflix is significantly changing in the sense that it's growing as a company. And so there's a lot of shifts in culture, and there's just things that are changing. And so that, to me, was one aspect of it, but for me too, it was just like I wasn't feeling challenged anymore or creative. I think the biggest one was creative. I realized, like a lot of the scaling and things that have happened or changes, there was a lot of process that was being put in place that felt very stifling to me as a leader, like it was just like, I'm not using my brain, I'm not being strategic. I'm like, fill, fill out this form. Uh oh, Ryan, you didn't update this. This and this in the six documents. I'm like, Well, I did it in the four I didn't know there was two other ones. And so there's all this, like, you know, just like, Wait, am I just, like, making updates places like, it didn't feel like the normal thing that I was doing. And so I felt like a little less creative, and then realizing that my son actually needed a little more support at home. And so Netflix was, like, almost like, you know, pulling me in more directions. My son's pulling me in the other and it was like, Wait a second, this makes it really easy too. Is like, I just, you know, I can't be pulled in both. I'm not going to be able to do both well. And similar to you, Jennifer, it's like, I want to show up well for work. And so it was just like, it made an easy choice to choose my son over work. And that, I think also having that mental break is so powerful. So I echo a lot of what you said.

Cole Turner
I think so too. And I just wanted to add, like it's interesting hearing you, Jennifer, describe you reflecting on who you were through your journal entries. Because after I, you know, after I started this path, I looked back through my photos and I saw just how unhappy I was, and I think about what you're both saying in terms of, like you couldn't give your all to work, I struggle with giving more of myself to work when I'm burnt out, I try and put myself more into this role, more into what I think is doing the right thing, and that burns me out even more, because when you're burnt out, you're not seeing the results that you're looking for, like you're saying Jennifer or you might not be showing up in the way that you want to. In my situation, it just felt like this isn't working anymore, and for me to go on a year sabbatical, Like Ryan said, is a privilege. I had been saving up for a while. I kind of knew this was coming, because I've been working full time since I was 15 years old, I never had a break. I had to, kind of, you know, work my way outside of my family home, provide for myself, me and my two dogs, and I've been really grateful for just the opportunity to talk to you both and hear about, you know, what's going well on this kind of sabbatical, in terms of prioritizing yourself, because I'm just starting out. And I realized what, from what Jennifer said, I just wasn't living for maybe, like six months. I was just kind of on autopilot.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I think that autopilot call is a good way to describe it, and where you're not maybe reflecting on, like, what's good, and you're just kind of keep repeating. And it's that vicious cycle, I think, similar to what you've both said, just reminded me and something that I've definitely thought about. Maybe I'm not a someone who's writing in a journal or thinking about it, but I've always really loved the quote that Steve Jobs has said when he went to I think he did, it was a commencement speech, and that he did for Stanford many years ago, but he said that his way of reflecting on what he likes to do, you know, is he asking himself if he likes doing what he's doing. He says,

Steve Jobs
If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today? And whenever the answer has been no for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something.

Ryan Burgess
And it's like if you keep hearing that No, I don't want to do this today over and over and over again, like something needs to change. And I think that quote resonates so well where it's like, you may not know, but you should be asking that question, like, make sure to check in on yourself, to say, like, Is this really what I want to do? Or you're stuck on autopilot.

Jennifer Tieu
Yeah, I feel like you get so into the day and like, you kind of start, like, that's so routine that you kind of just don't realize you're slowly, kind of, like losing yourself, or like losing direction, because you're just doing the motions, and you don't really take the time to just stop and think, like, oh yeah. Like, is this what I want? Like, am I happy? Like, how am I feeling stuff like that, you know, but I really got quote, like, commencement season,

Ryan Burgess
yeah. I mean, it is good.

Cole Turner
I'll also say, like, hearing you both describe how, um, you kind of realized you had to take yourself out of this situation. And me not realizing that once I got out of the situation and I started to focus on myself and work was no longer even a factor in my mind. It was just a complete 180 it was like I was almost like just in jail in my mind, in terms of, like, what I was prioritizing for myself, versus my whole life just revolved around work, routine and schedules, and now I'm on like, day five, six or seven. But it's been amazing, because all of my time is my own. I eat it up like an ice cream cone. I just, you know, I don't think about where I'm going next. And it was a huge relief. I was just so happy. It's like, it's finally my time. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
I remember my I think it was one of the first days was I obviously not feeling creative. That has been part of my journey to like I got to be creative because that's something that makes me feel happy. And so I've, you know, always do creative things throughout even while I'm working or it on the job. But I was like, I'm going to take some photos and just kind of hang out. And I remember going and hanging out by, like, the Golden Gate Bridge, and just like sitting there and taking some photos. And just like it felt so great and free, like it was almost immediate, like it was just knowing that, like, this is you're done, you've kind of wrapped up all that you need to wrap up, and you are now not working. That hit me quickly, and I felt that freedom. I don't know, Jennifer, how you felt that right at the start? No, I

Jennifer Tieu
felt the exact same way, like it, it's like, I didn't quite describe it, like, it's so liberating, I guess, like, it's like, kind of feeling you feel when you're like, when you graduate school, or you're like, out for summer break, and you're like, yes, like, I don't have to do any of this. I don't have to worry about it, and to think about it like my time is my time. And, yeah, it's just nice to just not Yeah, just put myself first and think about things I want to do and spend that time. And, you know, yeah, like the whole day, like everything is what you want, your choice. Yeah, it's very liberating. And there's like, this kind of, like, weight off your shoulder, and kind of feel when you feel much lighter, feel like all the things you're worrying about, or just go on and feel like it's like, a lot more clarity in like, what you're thinking about and and it's just yeah, you and your thoughts, and you need, and you need to spend time, like, really, you know, improving your relationships, you know, with like, family and friends. Like, you have time for that before you kind of just push those things off. Like, there's so many things you push off things for, like, work, but like, now that you don't have that you can do those things. You can say yes, because now you don't have that excuse of, like, Oh, I'm too busy. Like, oh, like, I have things I need to do. It's like, No, I can naturally enjoy these things without having to put it off as, like, second priority or something.

Ryan Burgess
I love that. But because it's like, exactly that feeling. It's just like this weight has been lifted, and, yeah, I feel like your brain works clean. You're like, I don't know, like, hard to explain, but I definitely felt like I was just like, thinking more reflecting and just like, calmer. My mental health, I would say, within the first few months. But like, even to this point, has been just amazing. Like, I eat better. I like exercise a little better. I'm still not as good on the exercising front. But, I mean, I'm, I go on hikes and, like, take a lot of photos, go for walks and things like that, you know, I'm chasing kids around. So I'm like, there's always something I'm just, you know, but the I have definitely been, like, actually eating better, like, I'm when I was at work, my wife has a pretty demanding job. I have a demanding job. It was, like, a lot and like, I was even just, like, eating out all the time. Like, it was just like, I didn't have the energy to cook or plan meals. And like, it sounds stupid that I couldn't get my head behind that, but it was something that I just was, like, didn't prioritize. And so there's certain things, like, I think just living is something you're prioritizing. You don't have anything else preventing you from doing that. There's still hard things you have to deal with in your life, but it's like just the fact of living is kind of powerful. I don't know if you both have felt that. Yeah,

Cole Turner
and I just wanted to add real quick, it's also challenging. There are certain dimensions here. I'm a single guy. I don't take care of children. So I for me getting burnt out while at work, was like, I'm not taking care of my own needs. I'm not sleeping well, I'm getting inconsistent exercise. I just, you know, when making that transition like you're both saying your priority shifts, your values change. It's no longer that work is a factor at all. It's all these problems that you know have been at the back of your mind, you know, overriding your sleep, overriding your habits, that's just not a factor anymore. And so the year you both describe it, it was kind of a similar feeling for me. It was like, you know, this is no longer in my mind. I can take naps, I can I can think about what my body is feeling right now, because I'm not preoccupied with some meeting or some Slack message or something that really just isn't even real. When you think about it, it's like, what is real? It's how we feel, it's how we relate to each other, it's how we're getting up and enjoying our days. And I think just corporate work culture has installed so many grind oriented behaviors in us that the pandemic forced us to look at and say, okay, is this the best thing for us? And we're getting to this point where people are burning out. They're leaving their jobs. But I think even beyond this conversation, people are generally realizing this isn't the way that we want to live our lives. We don't want to be stuck to the grind. We want to be focused on our needs first, happiness. Yeah, right. Is that so bad?

Jennifer Tieu
No, yeah, it's especially because, like, it's like, I feel like it's the thing we're all, like, striving towards happiness. But like, for some reason, it seemed so difficult at times, and I feel like, based on your single like, a lot of like, that's why a lot of people now look for jobs that have, like, good work life balance, because they realize now that, like, no, yeah, it's not like, this grind culture, this work culture, isn't good. It's unhealthy. Like, people want to live their lives, you know, like, it shouldn't revolve around work, and we spend so much of our lives freaking that, like, you know, is it so hard or just so bad to ask just for like, an extra hours, just to, like, enjoy life a little, you know? And it's crazy to kind of get to a point where, like, you know, to take a big break to get that, um, so I think that's why, when I was, like, getting to the next thing, I was like, Okay, I want to maintain at least some balance still, you know, because although I feel like I would pick another break just because it's kind of fun, you know, like, I can't take a break that often, but yeah, just being able to keep that balance, and then maybe down the line if I feel a big change in my life that I need, like, more time to, like, think and reflect. That's probably when I'll be like, you know, take a break, because it's not so scary anymore, because you're a good one. Yeah, I

Ryan Burgess
think it's like, it's good to know that you can do that too, right? Like, after doing it, right? Jennifer is like, you're like, I love that. I want, you know, you can't. You still have to work. Like, you know, there's still we need to be able to put food on the table all the things and live that way. But I think it's just I even like that. You're like, I approach work a little bit differently. And I think that is a healthy learning from just taking that break that I'm already feeling, even though I'm not back to work, is I'm like, Oh, I will do things differently, just so that I don't get in that space, or just be a little more aware how I want to show up. I also think like, I wish, I mean, I shouldn't say that companies don't do this. There are companies that do. There's even like countries that approach this differently than the United States. But it's like being a little more thoughtful on being able to give people that time or break. Because, like, vacations just aren't enough for it, and being able to have some of those, like sabbaticals is really key. I actually think if I went back to Netflix today, I would be a lot better than I was when I left. Meaning is like my head is so much clearer, and I feel like I could do my job that much better because of it. And so I think, like, companies could actually benefit, and I know they're not going to see that necessarily, or say, yeah, we're just going to give people time. It's hard to measure what the benefits that you get from it. But personally, for me, I'm like, I know that having that space has already made me better, and I'm excited for whatever it is I do next, that I will be better because of it. So I think that's cool. And then Jennifer, you and I started this conversation, or, you know, a couple weeks ago when we had met, one thing that stuck out to me that you'd asked me something about, like, how did people react? Like, you know, when you say, like, I'm leaving, they're like, Okay, where are you going next? Like, what's next? Like, there's, I got so many different questions. I got asked, if I'm going to go, what company I'm going company I'm going to am I going to go back to being an engineer? Am I not going to be a manager anymore? There's so many things. Or then I got some of the questions from like, family. I remember my mom's text to me at first was like, Oh, that's awesome. Glad you're able to take break. I think the next day she texted me, he's like, are you sick and dying, like, something like, dark, like that. She was like, I just want to make sure, yeah. It was like, No, Mom, I'm fine. Or I remember my close friend, his mom, funny enough, it must be this mom thing, but his mom said to me, Oh, you're leaving in this climate, right? Because it's like, you know, we all know that's not great, but it's just like, it's funny hearing people's reactions. Cole, I know you're fairly early to this, so you might have had some reactions already. Jennifer, like, Did you had some of these reactions too? And I'd be curious to to kind of hear about them. Yes.

Jennifer Tieu
Because, like, I also got, like, a variety of reactions. I mean, most I got were supportive. You know, I talked to my friends. I feel like they're a lot slimmer about where they're like in the day to day grind. And I'm sure that's something that has made me cross her mind once or twice. I know I talked to my sister. She was also kind of like in a rough state at work, where she was also kind of thinking about it. I think the person I was terrified most was to tell my mom, and she reacted in a great way. And it was, like, very emotional. Like, I started crying, and I didn't want to cry, but I it was like, all these built up emotions just kind of like exploded and like, like, I'm first generation, im grand. She came over from Vietnam, and, you know, she, you know, worked long hours for us. So different culture mentality, so she couldn't understand why I couldn't just, like, work through it, like, why I couldn't just, you know, toughen it out. And I think I disconnect also made it very hard for me, because I was, like, she couldn't really understand where I was coming from. Um, so that was the whole thing. But like, it was funny, because the next day I had a little vacation, my boyfriend went to a getaway cabin, which was, like, perfect, because I didn't have any kind of internet or technology, and I just had my journals. I just journal. And I just really, like, you know, just reflecting. And I think once I told her, and she was the last person I, like, kind of told, besides my company, that I was quitting. It was like, I think the last heard, one of the last hurdles. And once I accepted that, I told her, it was like, okay, yeah, this is this, is it I'm doing this. Like, it was like, I told her, this is real now and then, until my company, and then they were very understanding, but yeah, she was like, she was the worst reaction, and I knew the worst reaction, and it was just as bad as I thought, but she, she kind of, kind of accepted it. She was like, okay, just, you know, whatever your next role is, like, find it, you know, like, don't, don't just, like, sit here and bum around. And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's typical, typical

Ryan Burgess
mom's concerns. I love it.

Jennifer Tieu
Yeah. I find my mom probably reaction and like, what are you doing? Like, should I be worried? Like, kind of way, yeah.

Cole Turner
But it's also cool that, like, as soon as you realize what was happening, you went and took some time to yourself and, like, you sat with yourself and allowed it to be just yourself. Because I feel like, when big changes happen, you have a lot of people weighing in, right?

Jennifer Tieu
Yeah, I think it kind of worked out that I told her maybe I planned it that way. I can't remember if I was like, I was gonna use because I think if I sat in the house, have I told her it was not gonna be good. Because, like, I think when I left, I couldn't even, like, look at her, like, I just, like, I just, like, said bye. Like, walked out the door, and I was like, Okay, I feel like, much better, because it's just like, you know, I was crying and I woke up and my eyes were just like, puffy, and it was like a mess. And so, yeah, having that time just away and like, yeah, no one no contact me because, like, there's no internet in the woods, and it's like, those cabins were like, you have to put your phone in a box. Box that you can't touch it kind of thing that's awesome. Yeah, maybe you should recommend that. Yeah, like, you just need to get away from it. You should just go out to nature and just, know, internet and just everyone out. But yeah, so

Ryan Burgess
before you quit your job, we should that's some good advice. Before you quit your job, the advice should be like, go go out to the woods, shut off your phone, then decide if you want to quit,

Jennifer Tieu
yeah. Or also, after you tell your mom, you should just like, yeah.

Cole Turner
I mean, I like that whole cabin for a whole week. Rent the cabin for the whole week.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, I liked your approach, Jennifer, me, you were a better like daughter than I am a son, I just quit and then told my mom, right? Like, I was like, you know, she knew after the fact. To be honest, I think the only one I told, I mean, was like, my wife, like, I let her know immediately, and obviously, like, we figured that one out together, and then, yeah, it was probably telling my manager. Was probably one of the next people. Like, I don't think I told anyone really, which is funny, like you and I took different approaches on that one. Yeah, thanks for the fast one over everyone. And you're like, pretty much it just, yeah, I mean, it hit me like a rock, like it was just, like, something in me, just said it's time. And like, it hit me hard, and it was just like, okay, like, and it was cool to kind of just act on that, and to tell, obviously, to have that conversation with my wife, that's the most important thing. And so we had that conversation. And yeah, that was it. I

Cole Turner
mean, it's interesting hearing both of your experiences. For me, I haven't told family yet. They don't know and they probably won't for a while, because why bother? I don't need the weigh in. I don't need the judgmental What are you gonna do next? It's more so like, this is the first time in my life I actually like not caring about what anybody else thinks and just focusing on what I think and what I feel, and that's all that matters. But then, um, right after, you know, the day it binds all of my friends tends to be the very next day. They're like, are you okay? Are you like, what do you? What do you been up to? What do you? What's been going on the last 24 hours? Because I'm so goal, task and objective oriented that the idea of not working was just not even scary to me, but it was scary to everybody else, because I haven't done that before, and what will happen? Will I fly off the deep end? Will I go have a bender, go out, you know, drinking? It ended up being that. It was just another day and I went to the beach, and finally just got to, you know, feel like I was living for myself and not really, just like, Okay, I have to go do this meeting. I have to go listen to this person tell me or or whatever. And I would say to anybody listening, if you can have that opportunity to take any kind of break, just start with what Jennifer said earlier. Start with how you feel. Um, take account of how you feel, and then watch as you make a change, and then your feelings change as well. And for me, it was like a huge weight off my shoulders. I've been so happy ever since, just like, here's what I'm doing next. I'm going to the zoo. So if you get that chance, and you have the privilege to take it, because it is a privilege, then I

Ryan Burgess
highly recommend it. So I mean, we're talking about all the amazing things that come along with this decision, and you know, it's, you know, there's always, always some pros and cons. I'd be curious to hear. Think we've talked about some of the challenges that come along with, you know, just telling people around us and that it's like it is abnormal, or it's not that doesn't feel like the norm. And so it you'd have to deal with some of these conversations of explaining yourself, and quite frankly, I struggle still to this day, like knowing exactly what it was. It just kind of was a trigger that went off, and it was hard to explain at the start. So that was a challenge for me. But I'm curious what are some other challenges that you've all faced, you know, taking the break, leading up to the break, obviously, there are challenges that come with it. It's not just perfect. So

Jennifer Tieu
yeah, leading up to it, I think, yeah, we definitely talked about that, take the break, the cons. I think for me, I knew, well, it's not forever, right? You don't take the break forever. So it was kind of like, okay, well, I know I'm gonna need a job. So it was kind of like getting ready for that. That was one. The second one's probably like, well, I guess they kind of relate to each other. But second one probably like, Oh, I'm running out of running on money coming in this, isn't it doesn't feel very nice anymore, and it kind of adds, like, this layer of stress as the, you know, as you get closer closer to, like, you see your bank account draining, and you're kind of getting further in, and you're like, oh, okay, like, this isn't last forever. And then I need a job, because I need money. And then you're kind of starting the job shirt search. And I feel like one of the things, you know, they're gonna ask is like, Oh, why did you leave? Do. So answering that question. So then, like, trying to really understand why you left, and how to explain that in a way that doesn't seem like you're gonna, like, leave them anytime soon, or something like that. Like that, you're like, a, you know, risk or anything. And then, yeah, those were the two biggest things for me, other than that, I was, yeah, I was having a great time, actually, just like the day to day things, I was reading around my journal. I was like, what was I doing? And I think was just really simple thing. It was really nice. But I guess those were two biggest things too, because, like, otherwise, like, if we had all the money in the world and no one would we would all just, we would all just keep taking a break, and no one, no one worked. But, like, we need money, so then work and, I mean, yeah, so those are the two biggest risks for me. Those are the cons to bury cons, right? Like, you need to work to survive, and the pros, I would say, other than what we touched on, I really got that time to ask what I wanted to do and figure out who I was. And I feel like that's where journaling came in more. I think I got even more into it, like I would just journal. See, I had all these times in the day to just journal and just really write and reflect and crazy because I read it back now I'm like, Okay, this is what I was thinking and I was feeling. And, you know, it's crazy, like some of the things like, I feel like I took a break trying to see if I can answer that question, and I don't think I really answered it. I think I clarified it some more, and I feel like I still ask that question to myself, even to this day, and I'm still trying to figure myself out and, like, try different things. And I think I just realized like that it's like a never ending journey, like, Yeah, I thought the break would answer that question for me. I thought, like during the spring, I would find all the answers, but I found some answers. I didn't find every answer to those questions. And I feel like I'll never, ever stop asking those questions as long as I live, because, like, as life happens, like things change and you change, and I'll always be asking myself like these things. So I feel like, I guess, like, I know it's like a protocol, but if you can't take the break thinking you're going to find an answer, you might not find it. You might find a different answer. You might find or maybe you might find the answer. But like, if you're hoping to, like, you might not necessarily figure it all out. I guess what you're saying, like, it's not, it's not like the one end all solution, if you feel like taking a break is going to solve that. I also thought that I was going to figure myself out by the end of it, but I figured more about myself. But I still, like, I'm still figuring out a lot about myself, even now, and I realized I will always be feeling that way, like, always trying to learn by myself figure it out. So, yeah, I guess that's also advice I want to give, right? Like, if you want to take a break and you're hoping that it's going to solve this big thing, like, you know, like, it might not necessarily do that. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
I think I see what you're saying there, too. I agree. Like, I think you're like, I'm going to figure all these things out, or, like, figure out what's next. And I think that is just life, is that journey, right? And I do look at it as, like, I wonder if we're getting it faster, right? Like, when you're like, I you obviously needed something, you needed some change, and that was the change that you chose to go down. And I think, like, you're it's unexpected what you learn from that, which is really kind of cool, but yeah, you don't know exactly what to expect. And then you just kind of roll with it, and you're like, Oh, I'm gonna figure everything out. And I think, fundamentally, I don't think that's even possible. I think, like to the day we die, it's like, you're constantly figuring out things. I'm always learning new things. I feel like my kids teach me things that I'm just like, wow, I'm learning things about myself through them, which is really cool. So that's definitely a good call out. Another one I was gonna say, hearing Cole saying like, Oh, I have all this time. And I think Jennifer, you said that too. I feel that as well. I think that's sometimes a blessing and a curse. I'll kind of share why. It's like, I have all this freedom to go do a ton of things, and then it's like, sometimes I'm almost like, overwhelmed by the freedom to go do all the things. And then you're also brought up with the like, the money issue. It's like, well, a lot of things cost money. Like, I would love to go travel the world. It's like, well, I have responsibilities where I have to help my kids and, you know, be home for them. So that's, you know, harder. Or, oh, yeah, it costs money to travel the world. Okay, I don't have any money coming in. How do you do that? And so, like, there's a lot of those things that also kind of come to play, like, money is. Is definitely an important factor. And then the time, yeah, it was weird, but I've learned that I have to be a little bit thoughtful on, like, how do I want to spend my time? Right? It's like, I actually sometimes block time where it's so funny, I'm like, I wanted to get away from the calendar, but I'm actually putting time in my calendar to say, like, here's where I'm going to kind of spend some of that time to just, you know, get the most out of what I'm trying to do in this time off. And then another factor on the time was I tried this years ago. It was about, must have been around 10 years ago. I think it was actually right when I moved out to the Bay Area from Canada. I was tired. I was like, I'm just gonna take a break. I'm, you know, I'll find a job eventually. It's, you know, engineering jobs were just blowing up everywhere. So I was like, I am gonna just, you know, move, get settled, maybe take a couple I think I set three months aside that I was gonna take off. I made it to about a month. I was like, I'm bored. I'm like, you know. And I was even building some side project. I was keeping myself busy, but I was just yeah, it just wasn't doing it. So I'm impressed with myself that I've held myself accountable this time around, where I'm like, Yeah, I do need the time.

Cole Turner
I'm also impressed, Ryan, because I don't know if you remember I told you that Jem and I had made a bet on when we thought you might return to work, and I've already lost the bet. Mind you, you've done a lot of creative stuff since then, and like, I think one of the hardest part I hear that I relate to from both of your situations, is finding time to just sit with yourself, like not go find food, not go to the gym or exercise, not be with your wife, your kids, your boyfriend, your girlfriend, but really just time to, like, sit on the couch, put down Tiktok and just ask yourself, How am I feeling right now? And for Jennifer to do that and, like, write it down, I think is a really important step. I haven't always been good at that, but what this time has allowed me to do is just like, have those moments where I'm sitting and I'm realizing I'm distracting myself from how I feel right now. How do I feel? And that's a big thing in today's culture. We distract ourselves 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from how we're actually feeling, because it's hard to actually feel what we're feeling. And then the other thing I'll say, um, that really resonated with me is like budgeting and getting into that mindset of taking a break is actually a lot of work. For me, it was a lot of work to figure out one big lifestyle change to another, because when you work in tech, you have these privileged salaries and the money's coming in every month. You're not thinking about dining out, you're not thinking about your entertainment, you're just you're living and now things cost money, and the expensive dog food is going to eat me out of house before the cheaper dog food. And so I'm making these rational decisions in my mind for the first time, and I had to set a budget. So I asked chatgpt. I was like, Hey, here's how much money I have saved up to prepare for this journey. Here's how long I would like to spend on this journey. How much could I spend each month and still stay within my budget? And you really have to think about, you know, kind of the upper and lower bounds of that, because I would like to be able to do this for a while. I don't want to just crash out and burn in a month because I spent all my money. And that's a big change. Budgeting is hard, especially if you've never done it before.

Jennifer Tieu
That's a good one. I think chatgpt, I wish I did that.

Ryan Burgess
I feel like I spend most of my time now just like, chatgpt is open. And I'm like, yeah, it does help those decisions. For me,

Cole Turner
it was like, I just told it all of my financial background, and it was like, here's how many months we think you could survive. And I I like, took a more a more safe approach. I added some buffer, because you always have to account for emergencies as well. I think that's important for people to realize you can be on this break, and my dog might need surgery, and so I would hate to have to jump into a job a month from there. Yeah, Jennifer Tieu I think, I think it makes you a I think it made me appreciate money more again, like I especially when you start working for years, and you kind of just forget what it like to be a poor, broke college student. But then I kind of felt like being a broke I was like, right? This is what I was like to not have money coming in. But no, yeah, like, truly budgeting. I remember, like, going through my Excel sheet, and I just like, okay, no money's coming in. I gotta, like, nope, all these subscriptions. Gotta go, like, be like, spurting. I mean, I still, you know, enjoy life like I took trips and I went out. But, yeah, definitely you can't just flow through it all in one go, because you're gonna find yourself in a very bad place financially.

Ryan Burgess
But I think, I think what you said there, Jennifer, is exactly the right mindset, too, where it's like, what I see there, at least, what I'm pulling from that and kind of reflecting on my own part of it. I like the aspect of thinking about, like, what's important to you. Like, you revisit your expenses and look back and say, like, what's important, like, what is actually. Bringing me happiness. Like, if your subscription to YouTube brings you happiness, then, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna prioritize that. But I think that there's a lot of things that come into play that you're like, I don't really need this. I'm paying for it, but I didn't really enjoy it. Or like for me saying like, I was eating out all the time. I'm like, it was to the point I should enjoy eating out. Like that should be a good thing, but it was just like, I just need food. And it's things that you start to reflect on, those things, you're like, I don't actually that didn't bring me happiness. Like, the whole money doesn't bring happiness. Thing is, like, never really made sense to me. And then you kind of start thinking about, you're like, yeah, when you actually budget it and figure out what's important to you. There's a lot of things there. You're like, I didn't even care that I had that. Yeah,

Cole Turner
I that's such a good call out Ryan, because, like, I felt the same way, like, yeah, money doesn't buy happiness. It does make things a lot easier. Like, like, just survival needs. But um, in terms of, like, when I've been at my most happiest, it hasn't necessarily been when I've been spending money or had money. It was like I was doing the things that I love, the things that enriched. And hearing you describe like creative outlets, and hearing Jennifer describe like spending time with the people that matter, when you're just so occupied with whatever is happening next, it's just so hard to realize that you're missing out on that or that. Like, like like you said, Ryan, take it for granted. Like, you were probably like, what am I eating for dinner tonight? It's so hard to pick and choose, whereas now it's like, if you're only eating out, like, a few nights a week, it's a lot more special. And you're like, Oh, I really want to go to this place, because I know I won't get the opportunity again for a little while.

Jennifer Tieu
Yes, good new sense of abbreviation for like, things, and you're not over indulging anymore. You're like, very intentional with, like, what you're putting on, what you're doing, and it's funny, because you're kind of, like, forced to but in a way, it's like, better to do it that way than what you're doing before.

Ryan Burgess
Now, Jennifer, you're back to work, so you have a job. You went, you know, you followed your mom's advice that you're like, you're gonna have to get a job at some point. Was it tough going back? Like you mentioned, like people you're worrying about getting the question of, like, why did you take a break? Like, when you're you're getting interviews, like, anything that was interesting when you started interviewing again? Well, yeah, I

Jennifer Tieu
feel like, for me, it, yeah, I remember quitting. I was like, this is not the job where I quit. And I was like, You're right. But then I quit. But then I quit, like, and then I was actually in the job market where you don't want to be in and I was like, oh, yeah, they're right. This is not the job market, because it was, it was rough. And like, I'm in a different position where, like, Junior, double experience. So like, I'm fighting all these other applicants that are also trying to break into also in junior. So it was very hard to get a lot of opportunities. Um, actually did not get a lot of questions on. Felt like watching I got I got a few why I left, and I did explain to them, and I got lucky with the role I got. It was, it kind of started as, like a freelance role and kind of grew into kind of, like a full time thing. So it was a little different than, like, just applying and working. But I, yeah, I would say, like, now that I'm working in it, I did come in more with, like, a refreshed mentality and healthier. I felt a lot healthier, and try to try to, like, keep a lot of those habits that I kind of developed during the time period I was thinking, break with me. So, like, those financial habits actually don't really overindulge anymore. You know, I went to mentality was like, I'm poor. Like, I'm poor, poor, I'm poor. And so when I started like, I'm still poor, I still like, try not to spend that much. I'll still, like, look at price tags. I'm like, do I really need this? Like, do I actually need this? And I think about it, like, No, I don't need this. So that's help. And then I'll think about, do I need this? Like, do I really want this? And then I'll pay for it, and that's good enough for me. So like, a lot of those things carried over, and I do feel like I at a point where can, like, give 100% again, and like, I feel like I can perform better, um, and then kind of still fighting between like, I like, I'm still like, kind of figuring out how to not get to that point again. So like, recognizing what those signs are. And, you know, like I looked at the journal where I felt so I started feeling that way, like I read it back and I look at that journal, I never want to feel that way again, like I never want to get to that point. So whatever I can do to not get to that point, I'll, like, do it. And that's really just having a healthy balance and recognizing when I'm about to burn out. And, like, even recently, I got a little burnout again, and I was like, You know what, I'm not gonna work and take a little break. And just like, kind of feel, probably like a never ending battle between, like, getting that point of burnout and, like, stopping before I get there, and having that. Know, to remind myself constantly, like, remember, like where you were and where you don't want to be again, and like, how far you come. And I think that also was the breaking me kind of, like, the confidence to that, and that's why I feel confident if I do take a break again, it'll be okay. That lead to special. I feel like when you take that break, it's a special lead. The confidence you get from that will carry over. And I feel that way right now my next like my dog, if I do take another leaflet, I feel confident I'll be okay too. So that's like things I've kind of realized and kind of went to the next role. So nice, like, you kind of feel like everything would be okay. And you know what, at what point when it's not okay, and what you can do about that?

Ryan Burgess
I love hearing that. That makes me feel a lot better about my decision. It's like, okay, that's good. It sounds like you, you, yeah, yeah. Like, you develop some great tools, and like, are still leveraging those tools to this day. And also, I think what I'm hearing, I think I know the answer to it, but, or maybe I'm just gonna answer it doesn't sound like you regret taking the break.

Jennifer Tieu
I do not regret regrets. I hope everyone in their one moment their life takes a great break, because you just spend so much of your life taking it like, there's this like chart, I'm not sure me, I should look later, but like, it's good chart, and it just kind of breaks down all weeks of your life, and it kind of divides, like, different points of your life, and a lot of it's been on your career, and then, like, make chunks of retirement, and it's just crazy. Like, like, you take, you do most of your life, just working, and you never take a break. Like that just doesn't sound very nice. I just kind of crazy. Like, when I read that with that with that chart, I was like, what? Like, that's so much of my life, just like, spent on working and, yeah, I don't regret it. I think the only thing I regret is I wish I talked to like my boss about how I was feeling. I feel like I might have just pulled a fast one over them, but just so in my own like I wasn't in this headspace to think clearly, to tell them that. So I've already go back, I'd be learning a change. And I do wonder, like, what would have happened if I didn't quit, but then I feel like if I worked, I would have always wondered what would have happened if I did quit. So it's kind of like the path I chose, and I I'm glad I went with this one, like, I think I got to grow so much and learn so much, and I don't think it set me back at all. I think I would have better now than I would have been if I just kind of suffered through that pain and tried to toughen it now. I think I would have, like, the part of me would have died or something, you know, like, you know, you would have hit another breaking point. And I feel like when you put yourself through that kind of suffering, like you're just, you know, at that point, you're just, it's bad for your health, and, like, that's not good for anybody. So,

Cole Turner
yeah, it's interesting, because it sounds like you had developed some skills that taught you better, introspection, better like just being in touch with your feelings, being in touch with your values and goals, and having those tools and time to really work on what's important and prioritizing in your mind what's important. It sounds like that set you up for better success, but also like you're taking that into the next situation, and this is never going to happen again, and maybe something else will happen. Maybe you just decide, okay, like, I'm in a totally different mindset right now, and I just feel like taking a break, because now just feels like the time to take a break. It might just teach you things that you realize were already there, that you just didn't know how to read. And so I like hearing that from you, Jennifer, because I'm going through that right now. I'm like, I feel myself like I need to take a nap right now. And until this break, I didn't know what that felt like. I was just kind of burning through it. And like you said, like there's a calendar of weeks in your life, and we spend so much time at work, I would ask the question like, how would you treat your personal life? How would you treat to the same degree that you treat your work like, how would you make that your top priority if you're going to take a break?

Jennifer Tieu
I actually had a question for you guys. I although I know cool still kind of early, but I and I think this is something that was I was curious about when I was talking to you, Ryan, initially, um, you know, I feel like I came to my own realizations. And I was wondering, what are the things you guys have realized as you guys are going through, you know, your break, many things we haven't touched on that you would like kind of share, because I feel like, for me, I'm at one of my careers, like, really early, and you guys are kind of, like, further out. So I feel like, for me, it's like, kind of looking into the future, like, if I was like, you know, couple years older and in, like, a more, higher point of my career, and I took a break, like, what, what would be the kind of things I would be thinking about, and for me, when I see you guys, that would be kind of like me if I were a couple years ahead at your where you guys are right now. So that's kind of like, okay, well, what are you guys? You. Thinking about, because I feel like I'm thinking about different things. So I'm like, curious what you guys think about, or realize where you guys are now, yeah,

Ryan Burgess
no, I think that's such a great question. I think that for me, I'm still discovering some of the things in general. But I think that there are things that I think make it easier, in some ways, not so much that, okay, I have kids, so that's, you know, another constraint that I have to think about. I can't just be like, I'm out, like, I could just go live on the street, or, you know, it's like I have responsibilities, so that that changes some aspect of it. But then also, I think I'm further in my career too, that it feels a little bit easier, where I'm not, like, when you were early, you're like, I need that experience to to get other jobs right, like, and that can be really difficult, or that probably comes into those challenges that you're like, worrying about that like, am I giving up the experience? And I think what I'm reflecting on, because I think I even still struggle with that one, is like, Oh, am I giving up pieces of my career. I don't think I am. I think that I can jump back in and pick it back up. It might even be that, like it takes me a little bit while to get back into the swing of things. I'm not sure, but I'm comfortable with that. I think because this is so powerful, and it's like, I think that all those fears for me are going away. I don't know that it changes much later in the career, but I think those are some call outs where it's like, yeah, I've have more experience. I've been doing it longer. Maybe it's I change careers completely because I've done it for a while, like it's, I still don't know those types of things that could come out.

Cole Turner
I think that's a good call out though, Ryan, like, between where you are in your career, sometimes it's easier to get new jobs, and sometimes it's easier to take a break and come back and refresh yourself and jump back in. And sometimes it can be harder if you're earlier in your career. And companies want to see more endurance, they want to see more experience from your resume before taking a chance. And that's an important to call it to make but I will also say in this industry, it's always revolving things ebb and flow. It's not impossible for everyone, but the one thing I think that's important to realize is it's always designed to tell us to move forward. This industry always tell us move forward, move up, get a promotion. Next level, it is always okay to continue doing what you're already doing, and it is always okay to take a step back. I think many people find themselves in traps where they just keep moving forward, and it's like a hamster wheel of burnout. You're just chasing what you were already doing and what you're doing next. And so that's the one thing I would say, is it's always okay to take a step back or keep doing what you're already doing.

Jennifer Tieu
So in weight, it kind of gives you, like, where you guys are sorry, like, kind of like confidence that for being but take a break and being able to jump again a lot easier. Okay, yeah, I think, yeah, I definitely echo that, because I feel like, for me, it did feel like I was so early that this was, like, more of a risk for me if I just kind of just left when I barely had any experience. Yeah, it's nice to know that, like, if down the line that I could make that decision, and I would feel more comfortable, because there's a lot more confidence that it would be okay career wise, to take that break, because there's more, yeah, my resume, there's like, more show than if I took it a lot earlier. So I guess that's a big thing consider for people who might be taking a break if it's like, a little earlier in their career, rather than later,

Cole Turner
I think sounds good to consider. But I think also, like Jennifer, it sounds like you made it work too. So I think I want to, I want to that resonates with me is like, I hope our listeners see that and that it is possible for them to regardless of where they are in their career.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, this is this is awesome. Jennifer, thank you so much for helping, even just Cole and myself, see where the journey can help lead us, since you've gone through this all. So thank you. That was awesome. I think it's a great time for us to dive into pics in each episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast, we like to share things that we found interesting, that want to share with all of you. Cole, you want to start us off. What kind of picks do you have for today?

Cole Turner
Sure, my first pick today is I will be spending more time in the sun with all this free time and sun production is really important. I think, like, your skin is your biggest organ, and it has the biggest impact on your life overall. So one of my favorite sunblocks to use is called Super goop play everyday lotion. SPF, 50. It smells really good. It goes on really good. And I'm somebody who hates, like textures and wearing sunscreens. So this is one of the best ones that I like to use, and as a result, I will live probably a little longer and feel a little better in my body. Sunscreen is super important. And then my second pick for today is I'm gonna go with one of my dogs. I'm gonna go with Coco because Alfie gets way too much attention and love, and Coco is on. Sleep just like so chill. She's ready to go out and have a good day. So after this episode, I'm gonna take some dogs and go and sit with ourselves at a park. And those are my two picks

Ryan Burgess
right on Jennifer, what do you have for us to share?

Jennifer Tieu
I think your dogs love that you're not working anymore.

Cole Turner
They like have you there more excited about it than I have,

Jennifer Tieu
like, all the time, I guess my big actually a book I'm reading now that I think is, like, maybe I would recommend it to y'all too. I don't know if you guys have heard of it, called ikigai, Japanese secret to long and happy life. And was it? Yeah, I think I kind of wish I read this book during the break, just kind of finding like you're kind of like you're finding your purpose in life, and I are reading it now, I'm still kind of reading it, and I wish I read it during the break, because I feel like those were the questions I was asking myself, and I feel like that book would have helped me, kind of, you know, think about it in a many different way, or kind of just take some learnings from people who obviously have the same thoughts. So that would be my pick.

Ryan Burgess
Right on all great picks, I'm actually just going to share the one pick, which was just mentioning that commencement speech at Stanford that Steve Jobs gave years ago. You know, he said a lot of great things in that, but that one quote in particular definitely is so in line with this podcast episode. So I will that will be my pick for this episode. Jennifer, thank you so much. This was amazing conversation. I feel like I could have gone and talked hours on this right now. Like I feel like it's just such a topical topic for me as well as Cole so thank you so much for coming and sharing your insights. If people want to get in touch with you, where can they find you?

Jennifer Tieu
So I'm on Twitter to be like at Jennifer, underscored to you. CIU, also on LinkedIn, same, yeah, pretty open, just in my DMs, and I'll get back to you guys. Awesome.

Ryan Burgess
Thank you so much, Jennifer, it was great having you. You can find us@frontenhappyard.com on Twitter at front nhh, YouTube at front nhh, yeah, and leave us a review where you like to listen to podcasts. I know it's been helping others discover the podcast. We also like to know what we're doing well and what we can improve on. So please leave us a review. You.