Recruiting to Global Leadership: Taylor Desseyn Interview

Ryan Burgess
Hey, listeners, have you heard of Infinite Red? They're a powerhouse in the React Native world, and we're excited to have them as a sponsor of this episode. Since 2015 they've built over 75 apps for companies ranging from startups to global brands. Infinite Red's team of senior developers are the experts you need to build your next React Native app. They're not just about delivering amazing products. They also empower your team by working with your team to share their knowledge, plus they're deeply involved in the community, hosting the chain react conference to over 400 developers and producing the popular React Native radio podcast. If your company needs a React Native partner, look no further than Infinite Red. Check them out at Infinite.red/FrontEndHH.

Ryan Burgess
Hey everyone. Welcome to a brand new episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast. In this episode, it's another one of our sips of wisdom interview series where we talk with people in the industry. And today I'm really excited to be talking with Taylor dessen, who believe this is his third time on an episode of Front End happy hour. So I'm happy to have him back. Taylor has been a long time recruiter of engineers. He's given so many good tips and advice through social media and various podcasts. So we're going to talk about recruiting, but we're also going to talk about a new role that he's stepping into. Taylor will no longer be dedicated to recruiting. He'll actually move into a larger leadership role, where he will be leading teams that are focused on building global communities. In this conversation, we dive deep into hiring engineers partnering with engineering leaders to help hire for roles, and we'll talk about his unique way of leveraging content on the internet to scale himself and his team. If you're curious about recruiting leadership or how social media can build authentic communities, you're going to want to stick around for this episode. I'm excited to have Taylor on today. Taylor, I think this is what your third time on front end happy hour.

Taylor Desseyn
It is super Yes, we had just me, and then it was me and the recruiter at Netflix at the time, and then, oh, Jono,

Ryan Burgess
yeah, I remember. That was a good episode. That was a really good discussion between that was, you know, engineering leaders and recruiters. That was great. That was a lot of fun. Well, Taylor, I'm happy to have you back on. This is a little bit different of a way of going. Usually we're kind of more of like a panel discussion. This one's a little bit more going into your career. And, you know, getting deep on that, Taylor, maybe give us a brief introduction of who you are, what you do and what your favorite Happy Hour beverages. Favorite

Taylor Desseyn
Happy Hour beverage? All right, this is gonna bother me. We're gonna have to figure this out first, because there's no way I can be able to do my intro if I don't nail this. Man, I'm not so like a buddy of mine is like a master cocktail person, and then he knows, like, all of the things I have to say, I'm definitely okay. I don't have, like, a favorite beverage, per se. Like, like, I like, you know, anytime I go to the bar, I'm like, you know, do you have a last word? Or can you make me a last word, right? You know, that's like, the only gin one that comes to my mind. But I do have to say I air on, like, I'm more vodka guy now, and I'm much more, like, light fruity, kind of, like, my personality, right? Light and fruity, right? I

Ryan Burgess
like that. Yeah, yeah. You're like, I'm gonna enjoy the nice weather with this, like, tropical drink. Here's, here's

Taylor Desseyn
the deal, all right, here's the deal. I learned this early on in my drinking career. And like, I don't drink that much anymore just because, like, I wear my whoop and we, I mean, the health data and all that, it just tanks you but like, I'm about to go to Boston, and we'll talk about this for my new job. And obviously, you know, drinks will be had and so, but for me, I learned early on in my drinking career that I am not going to be the guy that's going to guzzle down like a bourbon on the rocks, or, like, you know, dark liquor with, like, nothing to it, right? I'm just not that much of a man. Like, shout out. Shout out to all the men out there and women, because my wife, my wife, can do it too. Just like, you know, whiskey neat. I'm like, Y'all are psychopaths. For me, it is like, I just like, you know, what, if I'm gonna drink, I'm gonna enjoy my drink, and I'm not gonna, you know, bear down through it. So I earned, learned early on about, like, the bee's knees and like, lemon drop shots and like, you know, all, like, the light fruity stuff. And listen, I don't care which I have. I'll get to my intro here in a second. People are like, What the heck's going on? There's a whole thing. And so, like, if there's a man who like sips on fruity drinks and doesn't care what people think of him. Like, that's big dick, big dick energy. And like, for me, that's kind of, that's kind of, I would say, the aura that I put out, I

Ryan Burgess
like that too, yeah, just being comfortable with, like, who you are, sit

Taylor Desseyn
there and try to down like Jem Beam. And I know Jem beam's not great, but like, I'm. Not gonna sit there and try to down like something I don't like. I just think that's stupid. No.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, you should not. I actually really thoroughly enjoy the taste of whiskey. I don't drink much anymore. Shout out to you, yeah, and it's like, that would if you know, even not drinking that often, that is my choice. Is like, I actually like a neat whiskey, you know? Yeah, not Jem Jim bean, like, tastes a little better, but that it's funny. I think it's, it doesn't matter, like, I wouldn't say it, I'm doing it because it's like, oh, I need to be manly. And, you know, that's not it. It's like, I actually enjoy it. And so, yeah, you should drink what you enjoy, and not 100% what people think. Yeah,

Taylor Desseyn
I do have to say, if I go to anywhere that has good wine, I always go wine first, nice. My favorite wine is like Austrian wine. Like light, again, light, very minerally easy to drink, like, kind of like, my favorite is like the tableside wine in Austria called a German or veldtliner. That's my favorite. My wife and I did a whole trip through Austria and just drank our way through Austrian It was great. And I do like a lot of German wines, just kind of that light mineral type stuff is what I really, really

Ryan Burgess
enjoy. So nice. I love that. All right, so, all right. Now, covered our drinks. Yeah, I knew, I knew that. Yeah, you got it. You got it, right? Yeah, important, yeah. So,

Taylor Desseyn
my name is Taylor Dessen. I have been in the recruiting of engineers, I would say for 14 years now, 13 years going on 14. I started my career in 2011 recruiting engineers. You know, I tell people all the time, like, Well, I haven't coded. I've been around. I told the guys at syntax FM that I recorded with yesterday, I said, I've been around since I was recruiting.net web

Ryan Burgess
forms, yeah. Like, now when you say those years, yeah, like,

Taylor Desseyn
I've been around. I remember when react first came out, and everybody was like, you know, paying people to, like, you know, you know, spell react, and you can get a ton of money. And so for me, like, I've been through, it kind of was your traditional heads down recruiter. But I noticed early on in my career that, like, I had to be different, especially in the engineering space. Like I learned early on that, like, engineers are a very different breed of human beings. They think differently. They kind of view people differently. They may not be the most accepting from the get go, and that's okay. I mean, let's be honest, most people aren't. But, like, engineers are very finicky. And so for me, I just I learned early on that, but I also like talking to engineers, right? Because, like, you guys do the cool stuff, like, it's like, I developed, I coded this that did that, or, you know, the app you're using, I coded that, right? So it's like, it that really interests me. And so I kind of progressed through my recruiting career at the first company I was at, and, you know, went to management and manage the team, and then manage the division, then manage an entire division, and part of it vision and entire division and so and then, really, since covid, since 2020, I kind of got into this, like content, community side things, and like, when it started, when covid started, I started to delve into this. I didn't know what it was, right? I didn't know that community was a thing and that, you know, you can leverage content to build community. I just was like, I'm just tired of the traditional way of recruiting. I'm tired of sliding into DMS like, Please work with me. I promise I'm different. Or I call people and I go, Ryan, please don't hang up with me. I promise I'm different. I was tired of having those conversations. I was like, I was like, there's gotta be a better way to to meet people where they're at. And so started, um, you know, my podcast, guidance counselor, 2.0 we're gonna be back in full force in November. And, you know, started doing that and started to give back to people, you know, at scale, through content on LinkedIn and and really, it's really kind of torped, not torpedoed. It's, it's, what am I trying to say, slingshot in my career over the last four years, where it's like, you know, it went from kind of, I was a very traditional recruiter, and then now I've kind of bridged the gap. You could say dev rel. I mean, I'm, you know, I got recently invited to be on a DevRel board with this dot labs. And, you know, this, this current position we'll talk to is definitely very devrelli, without the actual term DevRel. And so, you know, very grateful to kind of bleed out of, kind of that, get out of traditional recruiting and more into, like, community building. Literally, I was reading an email article that just came through from one of my favorite creators. He's up in New York City, and the article is, like, the one position that's going to be the most in demand over the next few years, and it's the head of growth role, and which is a very similar type of role. I was kind of asking for a head of growth too currently, but because of where it is, it's like community, but it's the same thing. And so, you know, kind of what that looks like. And I was reading the article right before we hopped on, I was like, man, like, I firmly believe in this, and we can talk a little about that if you want to. But anyways, basically, now I'm still a recruiter, but I'm just doing it at scale, which now with this new position, kind of across the globe, which is kind of

Ryan Burgess
crazy. That's awesome and exciting. So much Taylor, there, uh, one thing that you know I've I've seen that, like I met you because of guidance counselor 2.0 you invited me on Yo, bro, let's catch up. Yeah, I love that kind of stuff. Clearly, obviously, like, I'd started front end. Happy Hour, like, in 2016 or something. Like, it's been a really long time, but it was one of those things that at the time, I had no idea what we were doing in the sense, like, there wasn't really a lot of thoughtfulness. It just kind of comes together because of wanting to share knowledge and do something differently. I'm curious for you, Taylor, were were other recruiters doing this? Like, was there some inspiration? Or you just kind of were like, I want to do something different.

Taylor Desseyn
You know, as much as I run my mouth, I do a lot of listening and watching, and what I realized, like, to answer your question, no, and I still there are recruiters who put out a ton of content on LinkedIn, but it's very like, it's very your traditional cringe LinkedIn content, like, I have not met somebody yet who is consistently just talking about the job search. People are very concerned about going viral. And listen, I love a good viral post as much as the other person. I've had Tiktok post, get 10 million views. I've had Instagram post, get 6 million views. I've had LinkedIn post, get, you know, 6 million views as well. Like, I love the virality. That's amazing, yeah. But what I've realized is that the virality of things is not actually build the community to move the needle. From a business perspective, I think one thing that I've really tried to hone in on is, is, how do I consistently blend what I'm doing to drive revenue? Right? And I think that's where a lot of recruiters, a lot of tech influencers, like a lot of HR and a lot of HR tech influencers, recruiters really miss the markets. They're really good at making posts. Like, people are way funnier than I am on LinkedIn. I've always said I'm not going to be the guy that's going to have a ton of followers. I don't shit post on LinkedIn. I don't or on Twitter, I don't create these, like, you know, sensationalized post on LinkedIn, I'm just like, hey, here are five steps to level up your first round interview, right? That's not necessarily gonna go viral, but to me, I'm just more concerned about building community than making a post that's gonna get 5 million views. And I think the problem is, is we all Chase virality, but if you really understand content, how it affects community, it's actually the consistent posting of the two to 300 view videos that actually moved the needle over time, more than the 5 million, you know, viral View Post.

Ryan Burgess
I love that you said that, Taylor, because I think that that is the big piece there. It's like, I feel like, when you think about doing something like, mentorship is something I like, like, you know, as an engineering leader, that's something I've enjoyed over the years, and oftentimes even just people have quoted things from front end happy hour, or, you know, I meet them interviewing people, and they're like, Wow. Like, I learned this from youth through front end happy hour. And I love that. Like, it's so cool. You start to realize that, you know, even just five or 10 people listen to it. And if they they found that useful, that's huge, right? Like I've led, you know, 10 person, 20 person teams, if I can inspire them to do something, that's amazing, right? And so if you can do that at 300 people, that's that's actually the goal is there, you've built a small community. You're sharing your knowledge at scale. Now, yes, it does probably feel better when you're like, wow. 5 million people found this useful, sure, but I think when you're trying too hard on that stuff, it's kind of like you said, it ends up becoming that, like, cringe, click, 80, kind of feel to it, and it's hard. You have to toe the line a little bit too, because you also want your advice to get noticed. Oh yeah.

Taylor Desseyn
I mean, listen, I'm not gonna sit here and say I'm jealous. Man, I look over my shoulder all the time like, oh my gosh, so and so's got 200,000 followers on LinkedIn. I have only 25,000 but then I know people who are like, Oh my god, Taylor, you have 25,000 like, it's all relative and like, I think the older I get, the more I realize, like, if I just stay in my lane and focus on what I want to do and just build community, one person at a time. Like, the long term effect is going to be so much greater. And again, that comes back to, like, the revenue side. You know, when I interviewed it for this role, you know, I talked to the head of sales, and I was kind of talking to him, and we were, you know, you just know how to read the interview, right? And I could kind of get this feeling that he thought I was just some talking head, like, some guy who just has a podcast and who, like, right, can't execute on the business side. And like, so I just called him on it. I literally was an interview. I was like, I was like, hey man. Like, you know, I just, I just, the vibe I'm getting from you is you just think I'm kind of, like, this guy who just likes to talk a lot and doesn't execute from a business perspective. And, like, he kind of got quiet. He's like, Well, I mean, I was like, listen, here's the deal, here's what, here's what I've done. And I basically rattled off, like, from a business perspective, everything I've been able to do from like, bringing over 1000 developers at the gun IO platform when I was there, bringing in 55 new positions at gun IO, last time I was there, building a division, from $0 in revenue to $2 million in revenue at vaco. Like specific things that I was able to do. And he was like, oh, yeah, okay. And again, I think, I think that's where, I think I'm kind of like the silver bullet, where it's like, I know con I'm kind of, I'm kind of like, Gary V, Gary V. Gary Vaynerchuk has always said he's not gonna be the guy that's gonna I mean, he's gone viral because he was so early on it, like he's not. The guy that's doing the viral stuff, he's just documenting and putting out business advice, and that's kind of what I've done. I've kind of just followed his lead, and it's, it's obviously worked out pretty well at this point. I love

Ryan Burgess
that, yeah, too. It's just like sharing your thoughts and out there. But then also to your point is like, how is it impacting the bottom line? Yeah, right. I think oftentimes it kind of sometimes even fits with, like, a bit of the marketing side of things. Like, how does that billboard perform that's sitting on the side of the highway? I have no idea. Like, you know, and so when marketing folks try to articulate roughly what that would look like, and they should, you want to have a bit of an understanding the impact, and that's what you've done, you're like, well, here's how we, you know, here's kind of how we monetize our God, I've

Taylor Desseyn
been blessed. I've been blessed. I mean, vaco and gun, io, and now this current company, which we'll talk about here, and I'm sure, in a minute, have given me marketing budget. Like, I don't take that for granted. I've never taken that for granted, like, having a company give me, just, me my own budget to produce content. So you, you bet your ass that I'm like trying to make sure that I am tracking everything and being able to justify, from a business perspective, because it's so important, because the company is blessing you, is giving you that opportunity to so you better believe that you should, you know, give them the justification on on them giving you that opportunity. I

Ryan Burgess
also think it helps with constraints for yourself too. Like, as someone who's being, trying to be creative and being thoughtful around that sometimes those constraints actually help. Like you kind of drive to the piece of content, which I think is a cool aspect of it, too. But yeah, you want to. There's a reason you're doing there's always a business goal at some point. Yes, 100% All right, well, let's, let's talk like we keep bringing up. You got in this new job. I'm excited to hear about it. Taylor, so, yeah, you took on a new role. Let's hear about it. Yeah, congrats. Like, let's start there.

Taylor Desseyn
Yeah, I'm incredibly blessed. You know, I talked to the guys at syntax FM about this. We talked about the job search and stuff. And, you know, one of the things I said is I hit up everybody I interviewed with a year ago before I joined gun IO and and, and, you know, basically, you know, had the opportunity to potentially get two offers or two places ago, and then one opportunity kind of fell through the cracks just because of funding and and. So this opportunity, so I will be joining torque, T, O, R, C. Our website is torque dot Dev. Or a talent marketplace. So it's another marketplace opportunity, but they were just recently bought out by the world's largest staffing company. So the staffing company is called Ronstadt. I think a lot of people who watch this probably have heard of them. They are massive. The way I have been kind of informed about this, this, this purchase is that Ronstadt understands that they don't have the best reputation in the engineering market, and they understand the engineering market is very important from a growth perspective. And so they're like, We need to go out and buy a company who has a good reputation. And so they've met the guys at torque. The guys at torque have built multiple community first businesses together. I'm actually found out that I believe our CEO, the CTO, and the head of engineering, like I've been together for 25 years, I guess so they've built, like, multiple community based companies and sold them so they understand community and the importance of community, and it's and it's and it's a huge blessing. And I do not take it lightly that they are bringing me on to lead community. And so my role is not only going to be building community us, but how do we build it in Latin America and India, which is going to be an interesting challenge for me. I grew up speaking French, not Spanish, and so it's going to be kind of interesting. But again, humans are humans, right? Like they were, they were interviewing me, and they were like, how would you build community in South America? And I was like, well, can't speak Spanish, but here's what I would do. I literally just do the blueprint in the US, and I would do it in LA dam, and then obviously India. And you know, they did ask me, like, how do you build community in Australia? Because that's on the right. I said, Well, I think I need to visit first. I was like, I think, visit Australia. I think I need to have some of the Australian coffee and some of the food, and then we can talk about it, but, but no, so extremely blessed. And then, you know, shout out to my team. I had the opportunity to bring on Brianna Holmes. Brianna Holmes is from, from a marketing perspective, responsible for the growth of render ATL. Obviously, I met Brianna with render ATL and my host responsibilities over the last three years. And so it was a no brainer. Had the opportunity to kind of bring on my right hand man or woman, and I chose Brianna because she's just incredible what she does, and she really doesn't get enough credit for I mean, she's already taken over most of the team already. It's she's providing such a lift for me. And then I was able to bring on Jason Torres. Jason's going to be responsible for helping build community across the US. Specifically, we have some, we really have some focus on the AI space right now. And so Jason's going to go track down AI communities and get involved. And we're going to do some, you know, you know, meetup series and all that stuff. So really exciting. And I have two guys out in Portugal right now, Luca, um. And angelos, and then I have two wonderful colleagues, sushmi and Nikita in India as well. So great team, and we're looking to grow as well. So if you, if you listen to this, and you are a recruiter, I am. My goal is, is to build DevRel, but for recruiters. And so basically, I'm going to try to clone me at scale across the globe with other recruiters. So

Ryan Burgess
I love that cloning yourself is always that. You know, it's a tough one to try and scale. So it is doing. So are you still going to get to create content? Are you just going to be leading efforts more? So

Taylor Desseyn
it's definitely interesting. I am still going to have my team around me, which I'm going to be very which I'm very fortunate about, where I'm changing up pretty much my entire content strategy. And we can definitely get into the nuts and bolts if you want. The answer to the question is, yes, I will, but it is going to be, it's it's going to be a little different, like the feel of it, and it's going to be a little bit more focused. So I guess what I mean by that is, I've spent the last four years just, I mean, as well as, you know, gobs content, right? I mean, I am, if anything, consistent.

Ryan Burgess
I'm surprised how consistent, yeah, it is, yeah,

Taylor Desseyn
a lot, a lot of people have said that. I think one thing I do well is I am a crazy person. I do things over and over and over. Literally, I eat the same thing over and over and over again. So all that being said, I basically, I'm going to pull back on the content, but it's going to be better produced, both from a video perspective and then from a written perspective. I'm going to do some things, probably channel some things, do a lot more on the torque platform and and obviously, because, again, like, I mean, my, one of my jobs is to bring more people onto the platform. So again, to answer your question, I'm still gonna be putting out content. It's just maybe gonna look and feel a little differently, which, to be honest, I'm excited about. I'm excited to change this stuff up. So I've been doing the same thing for four years. And really, at the end of gun there, I kind of got burned out of just putting out the same here's how to write a resume, here's right, here's how to interview. And I just got so tired of it. To be totally frank with you, I haven't not said that on any other podcast yet. I just got so burnt out. I've really taken the month off of posting a lot. I really haven't posted LinkedIn. All of my analytics are down. I mean, everything's like, bottoming down. I'm like, no, like, I'm just kind of, like, panicking, but, like, I also know it's incredibly important to take the break. And I basically, you know, am very excited to come out and put out more content and put out new content, but have a different kind of feel to

Ryan Burgess
it. I like that too, because I do think you have to change it up. Like you feel something for so long, like I even think of like reflecting on something, like an artist, right? Like they kind of go and explore this, like one area or subject matter, and they explore it for years and and then eventually you start to see them pivot. And I think that that's natural, right? As just humans, we want to try something different. And I like that, that you're like, Okay, well, I'm just gonna try not I pumped out content every day, multiple times a day, four years, yeah, exactly. And it's like, engine, yeah. So it's like, what's different is like, Okay, well, I'm gonna do less, but maybe more, meaning, like, more quality too, because you can't get the quality bar as high when you're pumping that out as much a different type

Taylor Desseyn
and full transparency, basically. So, I mean, I'll just kind of laid out all my content now is going to be documenting the process of building this community.

Ryan Burgess
Very cool. Really, like that. About it, that's a very cool, yeah, I like that.

Taylor Desseyn
So basically like Jason. So I mean, kind of like high level, just kind of giving you the playbook right now is, like, Jason's going to be more involved in, like, interviewing developers. He's still going to have tech commute. I still want to have tech commute, which you obviously were just recently on. I still want him to do this thing. But like, he really understands how to how to do an interview, like, he's great at it. He knows how to interview. He knows how to engage. He's for for never having true, I mean, no one's truly done it, but for not even having a job yet, he his command of the interview was fantastic. I've been interviewed with him. I've been so impressed. So he's going to be kind of me now, a little bit like from an educational getting developers, kind of talking educationally and kind of giving back to the community. Obviously, he's technical, so we can get in the weeds a little bit. And then my role, and kind of what my content is going to be is like, what are the things we're doing, what are the things we're thinking about, what are the things we're getting into? How, you know, how are we growing the platform? How are we growing community? And I'm going to be documenting that because I think, again, going back to what I'm good at, I'm a machine when it comes to content, I know what it needs to look like. So now I can just focus on my ownership of the community and what we're doing, and being able to document that which I'm super pumped

Ryan Burgess
about. That's so cool. And I think also then taking that knowledge too and being able to share it with your team is an awesome approach, too, where you're like, Okay, part of scaling yourself is, in a sense, mentoring too, right? Like you're starting to share that knowledge and helping. And people like Jason. Or Brianna, they're, they're going to grow from it. And that, to me, is so powerful as well. Jason, oh my God, he is so good at interviewing. I'm so glad you called that out. Yeah,

Taylor Desseyn
yeah. I mean, he's, he's fantastic again, like I said, I mean, we're, I mean, he said, we're, we're, we're building a team of Avengers, right? And, and, you know, being in tech, Twitter for so long, I mean, so many people, it's, it's I'm super pumped about. And yeah, it was a no brainer. With him. We have another guy, Luca in Portugal, who is kind of like a Jason clone, but he just hasn't had the like, he just hasn't had the experience that of, like doing a podcast and like running a meetup, and what does that look like? So I'm gonna get Jason to mentor him and kind of bring him along. So then we basically have people that can run multiple meetups, multiple podcasts all across the world.

Ryan Burgess
That's amazing. I love that too, because it's like, it's such a new thing that people are having to deal with. And like, putting yourself on a podcast or interviewing someone is a skill. It absolutely is, and it's something that you probably don't think about at the time, but it gets built up. So no, I love that you're putting people to their skill sets too, or their passion areas. And I think that usually is a good recipe for success. So absolutely,

Taylor Desseyn
and it's fun, it's fun to be back in leadership again, right? I mean, to be honest, yeah, I got burned out of leadership at the end of vaco. Got super stressful. You know, kind of the Division I was at went completely under. And, you know, I was like, man, like, am I my bad manager? Like, do I not, not know how So, kind of, like, a lot of self doubt started to creep in, and, and, and then, you know, with gun, it was actually, to be honest with you, great to, like, not be in management. It was nice to just be able to focus on my content and growing the, you know, growing the brand of gun. And then there, towards the very end, I was like, You know what? Like, I kind of miss the people side, like, I'm kind of wired that way, like, you know, I'm really big on, you know, moving things forward together. I mean, I run my ice hockey team like, you know, and, you know, I organize all this stuff, and I just miss kind of the organization and the management of it. And so it's pretty awesome to step back into a true manager role with, with delegation and everything. It is, it is, it is a it is a new experience. I do feel under qualified, which means I'm in the right

Ryan Burgess
spot. Ah, that always is the best spot to be in, where you're just like, you have a lot of skills, like, I know that you do, even just like listing off some of the things you have done. It's like you have the skills to dive in, and they will be applied. But there's probably a lot of unknowns that you just haven't applied them at that scale or that type of knowledge. And I think that that's the best spot to be in. It is, it's a new challenge. It's exciting. If it was exactly the same as gun IO, you're going to be like, Oh, well, I mean, I can do that, but it's just not as exciting, and you're not growing as quickly either Exactly, exactly, another thing that I think you and I have talked about this many times, but one thing I always think about it from a hiring manager perspective, like I'm hiring engineers, and I recognize how important the relationship between a recruiter and engineering hiring manager can be. And I'm curious with you is like, how do you approach that, like, just even building that trust with a leader and collaboration, because it truly is a collaboration.

Taylor Desseyn
Yeah. Are you talking about just, like, with your team? Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
not even with your team. I think. Like, if you and I were working together and I'm like, Hey, Taylor, you know, let's go higher for a role. Like, how do you build trust with that leader? And like, how do you approach that?

Taylor Desseyn
Well, I mean, I think, and it's so funny, I'm gonna say this because, like, I'm actively, like, in like, individual counseling to get better at this. But like, it's the listening and then, like, active listening, right? So it's like, if you and I were to work together on a role, which that

Ryan Burgess
would be awesome, but like, I would definitely love working with you on something. Yeah, yeah,

Taylor Desseyn
yeah, yeah. You're like, Taylor, like, I need these people. Can you go out and find, you know, these people? What not? It's for me. I'd sit down with you. We'd probably get into the second, third, fourth level of questions. Of like, what's this person gonna be doing? How does this position differ from this position you're acting for? You know, you're asking for two full stack, you know, JavaScript engineers. Do you really need two full stack? Engineers? Want me more front end, more back end? If it's more back end, you know, is it actually going to be more like serverless stuff? Is it going to be more just hands on, like there's so much stuff to talk about, and I think that's what really makes a good recruiter, just in general, and then also working kind of in line with engineering leaders, and that's kind of what I've trained my past recruiting teams to do, is like, Hey, listen, just because they tell you, it's a full stack JavaScript engineer role, and it pays 275 that's really high. 175 and, like, you know, and, and it's, it needs to be remote. Like, that's not enough, right? And again, you you know this as a podcaster, they're, they're the art of asking questions is so important. Now, what's funny is, my wife may listen this be like, well, sometimes you don't ask me the best questions at home. You just kind of keep your mouth shut, right? Like, I get it. Do better. Taylor, definitely do better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I am, I am right. And, I mean, I think it's something I battle all the time where I feel like there's a whole nother conversation about marriage. I feel like sometimes we do show up at our best at work, and I'm trying to show up. Best in my marriage, but basically, like asking those deep questions, right? Instead of asking your wife, Hey, how are you doing? And that's it, and she goes, I'm fine. Well, we all know that's not that's not good, right? And so it's like, Hey, you said you're fine. Like, something bothering you? Do you have a conversation? Say that, kind of like, you know, maybe didn't sit well with you? Did? Did? Did something happened. Like, you know, you had the gym today, did you not lift quite as heavy as you wanted to? You bummed about it? Like, trying to get to that level is hard, and it takes so much intentionality. And I think whether you're a recruiter, whether you're a fellow developer, whether whatever, I think, getting to that second, third, fourth level of questions is, is really like a key in and of itself for to catapult your success in your career.

Ryan Burgess
I hear what you're saying there is almost just curiosity, like you have to really deeply understand the role and care about filling that role with the right person. And honestly, I've worked with some amazing recruiters over the years where they are questioning my own thinking on the team, just to better understand it. But even sometimes they've given me really strong feedback where they're like, Ryan, I think you're trying to get like, three roles in one or something like that, right? And they'll question that and push you on those things. And I love that, because ultimately it's the collaboration there. It's like, yeah, maybe it's my ultimate decision to make. You know that, Oh well, I'm gonna try and find this unicorn that doesn't exist, and I'm gonna go down that rabbit hole. They're gonna be there with me along the way, but they're also gonna question it and make sure that I'm making the most informed decision. And I love that like, so I think it comes from Curiosity.

Taylor Desseyn
Yeah. I mean, listen, and that's kind of like for me. You know, we can take it back to kind of interviewing, right? When I it was interesting is that, like, I couldn't document my interview this last time my interviewing process, right? Because I got laid off of ACO. I like, documented who was I was talking to. You know, I was doing my daily vlog and yada yada yada. Also, I've had a lot of people ask me about my daily vlog. I'm, I'm documenting my hockey team now, yeah, because, like, I just, I just want to change I was, I was doing, I was doing, like, people, I got to, like Episode 357, for the daily vlog. But what people don't understand is that I've been doing it, like, for a year or two before that, just not numbering it. So I probably got to, like episode 700 of the daily vlog, and and so I just got and then with with another kid, and just like the New Job and Job change, I just, there was just no way to keep up. So I'm doing a weekly, like, kind of short form vlog for my hockey team. Basically, it is a mediocre beerly Guys hockey player playing on a really good beer league ice hockey team. So we're three and, oh, right now we're playing tomorrow night against the other top team and lower a so we've won and been promoted every year. So we've been we won lower B, then we won upper B, and now we're in lower a, and we're currently in first right now. So I'm documenting that, and then also with torque, I'm going to start putting out a weekly YouTube vlog, a weekly cinematic YouTube vlog. So I'm hiring a videographer in town. He's gonna be traveling with me. Think Gary Vee. Think you know a guy that's really popular right now on the internet is Daniel dayland. Think about those guys like kind of that more cinematic type vlog that is that is coming. So I love that. I don't know what the original question was. I got totally sidetracked there, but yeah, this

Ryan Burgess
is great. I think that, you know, just hearing how you're pivoting a little bit too in in the content creation. I love it because it's like, you still enjoy creating it, but you're like, wait, what can I do different? It's like, it's kind of like you've almost mastered the daily, you know, vlog. And it's like, how do I do something that's maybe more challenging, or just something different? And maybe that's one way of staying inspired. But I'm curious, like, how do you stay inspired to keep going like that? Yeah.

Taylor Desseyn
I mean, I have to have time to just watch stuff, right? Like, I'm not much of a reader. My wife and I have talked about, kind of getting the phones out of the bedroom at night, because we just both scroll through Tiktok until our eyes bleed. And I was like, I hate reading, so I don't know. We'll see how that ends up. That To be continued on that one. But for me, I really like watching other people's YouTube vlogs and and I really, really like business people who are documenting building their businesses. So my two favorite guys right now are Marcus Maloney. I believe that's how you pronounce his last name with minted New York. I have a bunch of their gear. It's basically an athletic slash menswear company. It's two brothers, Sean and Marcus, and they do a bi monthly so twice a month, YouTube vlog, and it's beautifully shot. I actually know of the guy who creates it actually hit him up to potentially do my stuff, but I actually my announcement video on Monday is actually filmed by one of the guys who actually does mint in New York as well, and it was one of those where I built a relationship with him on Instagram. I have two Instagram bro crushes that I've now been able to solidify in person. One of my guys is Brian ganz he's out. In Bakersfield, California. I'm actually flying out there in November. He does, like, this men's workout for cancer awareness thing. I'm a jigger, so I'm flying out there. So he and I became besties because of Instagram DMS. Again, I eat my own dog food. I talk about it, yeah. And then, I mean,

Taylor Desseyn
you're one of them too. Like, I just slam your Twitter DMS and, like, I would say, like, I would hit you up. Any Where do you live, by the way, is it Tahoe? Is it San Francisco or both? San Francisco? Yeah, okay. Well, I may be coming to the vercel conference in three weeks, which is soon. Yeah, 100% 100% Yep, more to come there. But anyways, so that, so Carl, so Carl Maynard, is his name, Carl Nard on Instagram, and I just DM him. I've been DMing him. I was like, I just your contents incredible. It's so meaningful. And not being creepy, because that sounds creepy, but like just trying to just be a friend over Instagram, and I hired him to do my announcement video on Monday, so I cannot wait for it. He's really big in the Run Club, but he documents him into New York as well from a photo and video perspective. And then the other guy that I'm really, you know I've been watching, is this Daniel Daylan guy. He came out of nowhere. He just popped up on my YouTube algorithm. He's some 27 year old kid who's building some sort of massive business overseas, and he's documenting it, but literally, his entire business is, like, warehousing and shipping. Like, it's the most boring thing ever. And so I was watching it like, it really, like, all he does is he buys these warehouses and he just ships goods. Like, that's it. He's just 27 years old and just dropped old, and just dropships everything or whatever. I don't know, but the fact of the matter is, is he making he's making his day in the life or week in the life interesting? And I was like, wait a

Ryan Burgess
minute, that's a skill, man, that is definitely a skill. And

Taylor Desseyn
like, I saw, so I'm watching this kid who's, like, 27 years old, and I'm like, All right, what do I like about this? And so, like, I watch these videos, I'm like, What do I like? Where do my eyes go to how do I feel? Why am I watching this? And, and, and what's crazy is that, like this, this guy Now, granted, he's doing a lot of trial, and he lives overseas, so he's got the skyline of, like, Dubai, Hong Kong and Amsterdam, like, as his backdrop, which doesn't suck ever, right? No, but, like, but a lot of his shots are just him behind his desk, just talking and telling a story. And I was like, I was like, Listen, if this dude, who's 27 years old, can make building a warehousing business sexy, I can do it by building a community across the globe of engineers. And so again, that's, that's where I got my inspiration from into New York and this Daniel dayland guy, so but yeah, I just, I just watch. I just watch. I take notes. I constantly think, like, why is this making me feel a certain way? Because if I like it, more than likely My community is going to like it.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, you're, you're practicing curiosity while you're watching. It's just like, yeah, rather than just sitting back and watching it, you're really digging into it, which I think makes a ton of sense. I love that too, because I think inspiration can come from so many places. But, you know, just watching someone else's and really thinking deeply about it is pretty cool. Well,

Taylor Desseyn
in storytelling, storytelling too, I think, you know, I said this on the syntax FM podcast, and it's just really fresh. Like, I said I'm kind of pivoting, and honestly, I'm a little scared. I'm gonna be honest with you. Oh,

Ryan Burgess
you shouldn't, yeah, yeah. It's, like, it's new I was, I

Taylor Desseyn
was the recruiter, yeah? Like, I mean, let's just call it, what is I'm moving away from being recruiting, yeah? Like, I'm talking about right now. Like, my stomach kind of hurts because I'm about to walk away from not walk away, but like, walk I mean, I'll keep all of my skills like it's not gonna go away. Like, I understand how it all works, but I'm not in it anymore, right? Really, what I'm getting into now is like this head of growth role, which is building community and hosting events and documenting and creating and making few people making Kevin Smith and Boise Idaho feel special on our platform, like that's a whole nother skill set. And I'm and I'm about to heavily dive in there, and it's scary, because I'm leaving the tailor of 13 years behind. And

Ryan Burgess
you think, like, which is it? Is it? Like, it's like, an identity change, right? Like, probably, yeah, listen,

Taylor Desseyn
listen, listen. And I try to be as transparent as possible on these podcasts, because, like, you know, I'm out here saying virality doesn't matter, but I have held back on Twitter posting about building community because it doesn't get the likes because people follow me because of the job search. That's fair. I mean, if we're just being totally honest, here me talking about why you need a podcast for your company isn't going to get the likes, isn't going to get the retweets. If, then, if I tell you, hey, this resume needs to have three, these three things. So, like, shit that I talk about, like, just now, like, I understand it's hard to jump from one thing to another. And so I've just been like, you know what I'm gonna do? It, this is what I'm gonna do. And like I said, next Monday is the start of, hopefully another 13 year career of of building community at scale.

Ryan Burgess
I've no doubt in my mind that you'll do well on that. Taylor, I think, like, it's, it's the you are taking a lot of. Skills that you have and have built up, and I think you're going to just leverage those and and build up new skills. And I think that that, to me, is such an amazing gift in so many ways. And you can always fall back on the other right, like, oh, 100 thing is, you can always

Taylor Desseyn
go back and post about the job search exactly,

Ryan Burgess
or go into, like, recruiting and go back to that. And I think that it's good to know that, like, but it still is scary. It's easy to say, like, oh, I can go back. It's Yes, but it is a scary motion to kind of go through. But I think it's healthy too, because, like, now you're passionate about this other area, and so while trying, you're you're not going to get your best work out there talking like, I can hear your voice. You're like, oh, like, here's three resume tips. Like, you're not excited about it, tired, yeah, the audience isn't going to be excited either, Taylor, it's, it's not going to come across as great. And so I think, like, diving into another area is going to show that excitement and vulnerability and, like, it's a, it's a more exciting story to see,

Taylor Desseyn
yeah, and, and, you know, for me, it's, it's, you know, so many people have asked me lately, right? Because, like, in full transparency, I am very, very grateful so because the last two years I've taken me and my family have taken, like, a 40 to 50% pay cut, right? Like, let's just call it what it is. I was making really good money at vaco because I was recruiting engineers, and the recruiting or in the engineering market was ripping right? Let's just call what it is. I was able to scale division by myself like things were good, and then it's taken a big downturn. And, and, you know, my wife, my wife, did not mean this in a mean way, by any means I want to preface that, and my brother didn't either. But my wife and my brother asked me, like, Why do you keep doing this? Like, why? Why do you keep social media and, like, building community? Like, it's, you're losing money because of it. Why don't you just they didn't say this part, but in my mind, I was like, why don't go back being a recruiter, right? But like, I like, I asked my engineer friends like Kelly Vaughn, like, I messaged her. I was like, hey, what do I do this? She goes, you will lose everything. She goes, you will lose all of the relationships that you have poured into over the last four years if you just go back to cold calling people. And for me, I kind of had this gut feeling that, like it's gonna work, like what I'm doing is the next generation of marketing and growth in companies. And guess what I'm seeing now, that head of growth position starting to get talked about a lot by founders this opportunity. I'm super blessed. I'm back to what I was making potentially. This is the most I've ever making my entire career at this position, after two years of kind of taking it on the chin. And so it's one of these things where, like, I'm super blessed, I'm super grateful. I'll never take it for granted. But like, my encouragement, if you are watching this podcast and you are, you want to jump in your own endeavor. You're worried about taking a you know, worried about doing something like, stick with it, because it's gonna work if you, if you like, like, to me, this is like, a huge marathon, like, finisher to me, like, like, really talking to you, I'm getting all in my feels right now. Like, over the last two years, has been tough. And like, this opportunity that I've been blessed with is just kind of a confirmation of, like, my gut was right, right?

Ryan Burgess
And, I mean, I love that. I love hearing all that too, because I think it is so important what you said too about it, like it being more of a marathon. I think too often we get caught up in the like, oh, like, I'm not, you know, making this much money for a year or two or whatever, and it's scary. I get it. I mean, I did something similar, where I was, like, you know what, I'm gonna give up my large salary and take take a break and it, people don't understand it. Taylor, there's a lot of people that don't understand it and but there's something in you, like that you're passionate about this, like you're like, I see this, I have this vision, my guts telling me, but also you're enjoying it. And I think too often we get hung up on like, success being tied to that money. We need the money to live and grow and all those things. But I think when you really apply the passion and are doing something you truly enjoy, I feel like success has to come like it truly. And I think with the way the world is, with the internet and everything nowadays, it's like you can find your niche and make it a success if you keep at it and do that, and you've proven that.

Taylor Desseyn
Yeah, I think, I think Gary Vaynerchuk said this is like, how long can you hold your breath underwater, right? And, and, and for me, I mean, listen, we it was, it was getting a little difficult there

Ryan Burgess
for, yeah, right, you kind of have to know, how long, how long can you do this? Yeah, right.

Taylor Desseyn
But, like, again, I think, you know, I'm a big proponent of everything happens for a reason. And you know, I think I'm just gonna just say I'm glad I stayed the course. I'm glad I say the course.

Ryan Burgess
I'm glad you did two men. And I'm sure that two years of that is tough. It is hard. It's like the self doubt, I'm sure was building up quite a bit.

Taylor Desseyn
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, literally, I. Had that conversation my wife and I was like, am I torpedoing, like, my family's finances because I just want to create content on the internet for likes.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, when you put it like that, you're like, Taylor, what are you doing? But like,

Taylor Desseyn
no, like, if we're being real here. Like, I stepped away from that conversation was like, damn, am I? Am I making my family make less money because I just want a like, on Instagram or Twitter, right? And I was like, but I was like, You know what? No, no, it's not that. I said, unfortunately, that is how you build community. That is how you build community skill. You have to put yourself out there, day in, day out. So, like, I kind of snapped out of it. But like, for a second, I was like, I don't know, maybe, maybe I should just go to Texas and be a recruiter and just smile. And, ah, right.

Ryan Burgess
It's like, you kind of say, like, well, I can do that. I've proven I can do that. And, you know, I wasn't as happy with it, but I can go back to doing that. And it's like, do I, you know, stay the course? Oh, man, I can just imagine that. Like, just daily. That probably changed for Yeah, it was

Taylor Desseyn
like a week. It was like a week it was like, a week where I sat there and I finally brought it up to my wife, and she was like, I did not mean that at that. And I said, No, you didn't. I said, just want you to know I've been, like, marinating over it. And so again, I'm glad everything worked out. And, you know, I'm, I think, I think, I think it's gonna be a lot of fun and kind of building this and really like treating developers well through the entire interview process. The whole thing is, I just want to build this platform to where, once you enter it, right, once you sign up for our platform, we give you the tools and the mentorship. Like, I'm talking about building out a mentorship program with engineers. Would love to have you a part of it, talking about, like, building like ambassadors and having these, like, SMEs to tech people out on our platform. And like, you know, if you need mentorship, like, I'm kind of thinking about this whole holistic like, how do you, how do you put the entire job search, like, in a package, and, like, bring people through that, which is kind of,

Ryan Burgess
I like that, yeah, and I love it, it, it's all stems from the community aspect too, which I really love that. And I think, I mean, maybe it's also because it resonates with me too, is like, I love that community aspect. I've done many things on top of being an engineering leader that I'm like, I end up brooding back to this, like, community and building that, and finding that we learn so much from it, like, as groups around an area like that. So I think, like, it was never about the likes Taylor, like, I knew that, yeah. But it's like, it's funny. You hear that. I'm curious too. As you think a lot about this, you think a lot about content. We all hear, like videos the future, like, I mean, you see it like, even podcast wise, like Spotify now is like encouraging people for podcasts to upload video instead of just the audio. I'm a fan of the video aspect. Like, I'm enjoying it, maybe more from a creative standpoint of, like, Hey, I'm learning a lot by, like, applying this to, like, front end, happy hour, editing video, all that stuff. But I'm curious. Like, what are future things that you think were headed? Like, clearly the video, but like, Maybe I heard you say something else is you kind of touched on this quality aspect before it was, like every single day at, like, a volume level. Do you think we're gonna hit more of this, like once a week post or once a month post, where it's, like, just more meaningful?

Taylor Desseyn
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked this. I've been really drawn to high quality content, right? And it's so funny I posted this, and Jason, of course, like, 15 years in the film industry, like, gave me a really, really hard time about it, but like, going from my iPhone content to DSLR content, and he was like, that's not the correct term. It's like, I do, I know, but like, basically, I think we've spent four years putting out zoom zoom webinar content, Zoom content, you know, kind of, I still think the FaceTime content still works really well. Like there's so many creators that tell amazing stories from like a, you know, just open up your phone and start talking to it, like FaceTime content. But I think, and I've talked so Carl again, who's going to shoot my announcement video? He and I started talking this at dinner, about how dinner, about how, you know they're, they're he sees in his behavior, this desire to go deeper from like a YouTube content, like a long form, 10 to 15 minute, yep, um, and, and what I what I'm kind of stealing and cheating. There's a lot of fashion brands that are documenting, building their fashion brand on YouTube, right? It's, you know, a gym shark, or a, you know, mid to New York, or there's, I'm following another guy who runs a company called, like, the nude project. And it's like, he, he's in Spain or something like that, and he's documenting, and it's super fascinating. And I think, I think people are really wanting to go deeper. I think short form will always be here, but I think your short form has got to be super educational or super cinematic. Like, like, I think this whole, and this is what I'm gonna try to change it torque, like, this whole, like, let's like, chop up our webinars and, like, put out a 32nd webinar clip. I don't think that does it anymore. And I don't think that's gonna do it anymore. I think if you're gonna do the webinar clip, I think it's gotta be like, just maybe the audio, and then you gotta have really engaging visuals. Like what I'm seeing right now is I follow a lot of Instagram who counts, who basically take motivational like this motivational audio sound, and then they overlay it with like, thematic clips from movies that depict what the audio overview is saying. And it's super well done. And I can tell it takes a lot of time, but those are doing really, really well. I mean, like, prime example, I'm putting out my in one Instagram post a week right now. It's getting for hockey. It's got about, like, close to 700 views per one post. I was only averaging maybe 100 or so per post on Instagram when I was posting two or three times a day. Now you could still say, you could be like, well, Taylor the math on that. You'll still have more views. But I think, I think there's a way to put out higher, better quality content and shorter content, and then really lean into the long form. So in my opinion, I think, like some hot takes moving forward, I think every company needs to have a build in public YouTube, of like, here's what we're doing, here's what you know. And this is, in my opinion, the head of growth, or head of communities, be in charge of this, right? Or the DevRel person. What we're doing at torque is, is the this, the cinematic vlog, is going to be on my YouTube, because I am the leader of the community team, and I think that's what company, I think they need to empower a person to be the mascot of the company. And then our torque YouTube content is going to be very beautifully filmed, like, sit down content with engineering leaders across the country, right? And having these, like, very, like, almost, basically, like a conference style talk on our YouTube. And so that's, that's, that's kind of my playbook, and it's going to take for us a bit to execute it. But I do think higher quality and not spray and pray is is kind of going to be the thing. And and I think I still think videos first. I know too many companies that are writing 62 blogs in three months, like, like, what are you gonna do with all that written content? Usually gonna post it like, like, what are you doing with it? So I still think the traditional marketing approach of writing I think, I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm saying I think you need to have it, and it needs to be a part of it, but you also don't need to be writing so many blogs and having no video content, I think, I think video still is king.

Ryan Burgess
I think that makes a ton of sense too. I think the quality aspect, the way I've been thinking, I agree with all of what you said in that approach is because I think it's also like you said, there's that FaceTime, you know, video absolutely, yeah,

Taylor Desseyn
yeah, does great. I'm gonna do a lot of it too, kind of in this new role. It

Ryan Burgess
still has a place for it and everything. But I think it's like, the more you open up the funnel to people being able to do something, it's like you kind of like everybody can do it, right? And so I think that's where we're at right now, is it's opened up. Like everybody has a smartphone. Everyone has an easy ability to go to Tiktok, Instagram, YouTube, whatever it is, and just upload, which is so cool. And then I think over time, everybody does it. And then, so what stands out is the quality, the quality of the story that you're telling, the cinematic like, just visuals, and then the like, sound, all those things I think are going to play more into it. And so, yeah, even those, like, quick videos that someone makes, it's splicing together the right content that really tells a story and that it's not just like, you know, just automate it like, I think now too, a lot of the software out there, it's aI generated, and I don't think it works quite yet. It's just like it might get to a point where you could literally take our conversation and throw it through AI where it just tells this amazing Tiktok video in 30 seconds, sure, but I'm not seeing that. It's just not there, no no.

Taylor Desseyn
And again, I think, like I follow a bunch of creator emails to kind of keep my pulse on it. I'm seeing a lot more companies hiring full time videographers. Now I'm seeing a lot more people like, empowering like, you know, so and so is looking for, you know, a copywriter for their brand. Like, I think marketing teams. I've said this a while ago. I think marketing teams are going to be looking different now in the next, like, three to five years, I don't think you need these huge marketing teams anymore. I think you need somebody who's essentially knows how to work everything into it, right? So how does a you know brand work, versus on the on the web page, versus the social media like, I think you need kind of a traditional like CMO, but, but, but, I think moving forward, I think like, your content engine is going to be individuals. Like, that's what I'm feeling like. I want every single person on my person on my team to create content, basically like a Barstool Sports situation where everyone's producing content. You kind of fall in love with different people based off your style, right? And then, yeah, yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's been my vision for the longest time. And then you then what you do? Is, is you basically have a team that ingests all that content and then filters it out through the internet, through written, video and audio form. And I think then, but then you need somebody to run community and events like I think marketing is going to look incredibly different over the next three to five years. And as somebody who went to school for traditional marketing, but I don't know traditional marketing, I think, I think the companies that can understand that I talked with three companies, I'm not kidding you, three companies during my interview process that fired their entire marketing department because they realized that all their sales leads were coming through individuals and not the entire marketing department. Wow.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, yeah, and when you got to cut things that aren't making money, it's a business, right? Wow. Well, Taylor, this has been amazing as always. Oh, great. Yeah, it did. I was like, nuts. I looked at the time and I was like, Oh

Taylor Desseyn
crap, getting into it, which I know.

Ryan Burgess
I'm like, I gotta be respectful of his time. I'm like, damn. So yes, it was a great conversation. Taylor, as always, it's so good catching up in the last couple seconds here. Where can people get in touch with you if they want to follow all your new content that's coming out? Yeah, where can they stay in touch?

Taylor Desseyn
At tdesin is still gonna be consistent across all social media platforms, T, D, E, S, S, E, y, N, obviously, go join torque dot Dev. I'm gonna have the link to our platform through all my socials, but, yeah, follow me at T des, and you know, definitely would love to have you along for the ride of kind of building this amazing new community.

Ryan Burgess
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Taylor. Thanks, brother. Appreciate you. And that's a wrap on this episode of sips of wisdom, it was awesome having Taylor back on the podcast to share his journey and his career and also talk about his new role, stepping into leadership and leading a team that's building global communities. We covered a lot of ground, from the importance of partnering with engineering leaders to hire top talent, but also how creating content can help scale your initiative. I hope you found Taylor's insights as valuable as I did, and as always, thank you for listening to front end happy hour. Make sure to subscribe and leave us a review, let us know how we're doing and share the episode with others who might find it valuable. Thank you for listening. We'll catch you on the next happy hour. You.