Sips of Wisdom: Interview with Angie Jones

Ryan Burgess
Welcome to a brand new episode of the Friday and happy hour podcast. This is part of our sips of wisdom series, interviewing amazing people in tech and learning about their careers. Today, I'm really excited to be talking with Angie. Angie Jones is joining me to talk about her career, and I'm excited to dive in. Angie. Welcome to front end happy hour. Angie Jones Thank you so much, Ryan. Thanks

Ryan Burgess
for joining me. I think to start off with, I would love to hear a little bit about yourself, little intro of who you are, what you do, and then what your favorite Happy Hour beverages? Angie Jones Oh, wow, okay. Um, well, I'm Angie. I'm from New Orleans, so, um, definitely love a good happy hour um, New Orleans

Ryan Burgess
has some good drinks. That Angie Jones is true. That is true. Um, yeah, I work, um, in developer relations. So I lead developer relations at TBD, which is the newest business unit for block, and we focus on open source technologies, which is really funny, interesting in a FinTech environment. So block is formerly known as square so you may have heard that them at a company that made Cash App square terminals, and, you know, all of that good stuff. And so my business unit specifically focuses on, like, open source SDKs and APIs in in this round. So it's, it's interesting work, for sure, that

Ryan Burgess
is really cool. I'm sure you come across like just a variety of different things that you're dealing with too, because of, like, financial stuff is always interesting. And then, like, I love that you could set it with open source too. You're like, that's not always the case. Yeah, it's Angie Jones really funny. Um, there's, I say, like the tech part is the easiest part of it all. Like, there's all of this stuff around compliance and regulations and stuff like that. And people get really nervous about us developing in the open sometimes when they're not used to this, right? And so it's, it is? It is interesting?

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I've never worked at like, a financial company, but I worked at agencies that would get hired by banks and trying to think, what other financial even just like large companies that are e commerce, like a Walmart or Target or things like that, and yeah, the banks especially were just like the regulations and things that you'd have to go through, the compliance of even just accessibility, which not a bad thing, but you would go to the like, just, you know, triple A or double a compliance, and it's just a lot of extra work, which means you move a little bit slower, which, you know, in tech, has always been that mantra of like, little steal from Facebook, of like, move fast and break things That doesn't work in financial and you have to be, actually, very, not slow, but you just have to make sure you are really doing your due diligence before shipping. Angie Jones I'm so glad you said that, because, like, I feel like people are like, Oh, you, you guys haven't released yet. Or, you know, we have released, but this is back then, but you know, it's like, oh, yeah, you've been working on this for a year. Where is it? But you're exactly right. Like I said, the tech part is, is not as hard, but it's, you know, just making sure we dot our i's and cross our T's and things like that, so

Ryan Burgess
you can't make mistakes with people's money for some reason. Yeah, people got upset. Angie Jones They do it. The stuff that we're doing is for, like, international payments and things like that, and so now you have, you know, different regulations across the globe that you have to adhere to. So, yeah, fun stuff for sure. Oh, man,

Ryan Burgess
yeah, you just open a can of worms on that one too. Because, like that, there's some interesting things that, like, I never would have learned unless working on some of those things that, like, actually at Netflix, that was something that working on some of the payment operators across the world, just so that, you know, people could pay for Netflix, was it was so interesting. They're things that I just never would have understood. I'm curious for you, what's been the most, like, challenging or interesting country for payments that you've had to work on? Angie Jones Yeah, like, we have a really big focus right now on the global South, specifically, like countries in Africa, in Latin America, because we don't realize this a lot in the US, but they're pretty excluded from, like, the global financial scene, you know, and so it's really difficult to send payments to them, for them to send payments outside of their their countries and things like that. And so just realizing that, like even sometimes now, I'll post about, you know, things that I'm working on. And. Right? Depending on where you live, you don't even get it. It's like, why would you need that? You know? And it's like, oh, yeah, your life is comfy. These folks over here, not so much, you know. So, yeah, yeah,

Ryan Burgess
it's even just like, it's wild, too. How many, even countries are very much like cash payments, and so, you know, you're like, how do you translate cash over the internet, and there are ways, but it's like, in the US, you're right, we're just very like, just not used to that. And so you're like, what do you what do you mean? Everyone doesn't just have a credit card and they just, you know, put that in and everything's good, right? It's like, no, that's not as simple as that. So I love that, that there's just so many challenges in that space that people just don't realize. Angie Jones Yeah, it was funny when I first went into his roles, I don't remember the gentleman's name, but he tweeted something to me, like that, I should learn about money. And I was so offended Ryan, because I'm like, What is he talking about? Is this he may explain to me I know about money. I think money, you know? And I kind of snapped on him a little bit. And then once I got into the job, I was like, Oh, he's right. I don't know anything. I had to go back and find that tweet, like, months later and apologize to that man. Like, okay, now I get what you meant. I'm reading a book. I'm totally learning about money. I get it now, you know, but yeah, it's a lot.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, good for you to go back and apologize to because, I mean, it's like, I get it your first like inkling of like, this person just mansplaining. You're like, that's probably your gut reaction. Is probably right 99% of the time. But it is funny. It's like, yeah, when you put your like, global view of something like money, you're like, Wow, there's so many things that we just don't know. And, I mean, you can read about it, but also, like, you need a good reason for that. And I think sometimes being put in the situation where you're building something tech related that works for users outside of the US, that's it's just eye opening. And I very much appreciate those things, because I think like reading about it just not the same. It really isn't like, it's like we always say, like learning is doing, and that's how you learn best. Well, that's kind of one way to learn about like other countries, or their payments, traveling is a good way too, and, and so I think, like, yeah, you can read about it all day long, but it's just not the same. So now, Angie, you know it all. You're dealing with so many different payment methods. Well, let's, let's start maybe going into, like, I would love to know, like right now your global vice president, Developer Relations block. How did you go from being an engineer to to all the way up down the leadership chain, or leadership chain. Angie Jones You know, that's really funny too, right? Because this was never my goal to even get into, like leadership in this capacity. I've always said since I started working as an adult, that I wanted to stay on the technical track, and so I managed to do that pretty well, and then I got into developer relations. And so I started leading the developer relations initiative at apli Choose as an IC. But then, you know, as I grew that, then you need to build a team, and, you know, so then you just kind of start getting, uh, into, into those leadership, uh, roles. And that was a startup. And so in startup lands, you you have, you grow up pretty quickly, right? Because you have all of these different responsibilities, and you're basically working the two or three jobs all kind of wrapped into one. And so, um, that really expedited my learning and my trajectory on the leadership path. And so after several years at appletoos, I then came over to to block, to do something different, still in developer relations, but a totally different avenue at aptitudes. I was working on AI stuff before it was, like, really trendy, and in test automation was a big area for me, and so I was just ready to kind of do something different. And so came over the block to learn about money. I

Ryan Burgess
love that, I mean, and I think that's cool. I think anywhere in my career journey, it's always like, I need a new challenge. And you kind of just like, this is different, and kind of dive in. Same thing with leadership. I love that. What you said, it's like, sometimes you don't set out like, nobody is like, I want to be a software engineer and ultimately be a leader. Like, I don't think anyone's like, trying to go down that path. It just kind of happened. It's a new challenge. And I also love what you said about the startups. Like, honestly, being at a startup, you learn so much so quickly, and it is because you are you're playing different roles. Like it just, it just happens that way. You may not have the title of all the roles that you're playing, but it's. It's like someone's got to fill the gaps, and I'm thankful for having that experience too. Like, I feel like being at startups sometimes is really exhausting, but when you look back at like, a year of at a startup can sometimes be like multiple years at other companies, just from a learning perspective. Angie Jones No, you're absolutely correct that I I've worked at the big companies, you know, I've done IBM, I've done Twitter, you know, I've done, like, all of those big companies. And startup was different. I definitely feel like, and then I was there for four years, which is, like, I don't know, felt like 20 years, yeah, like, what I've learned and what I've accomplished there, versus, you know, the other roles.

Ryan Burgess
I'm not surprised to hear you say that in four years at a startup is a long time, like it truly is, because, like, I always think, like, 810, you know, 10 years or something like that at a company is a long time in general, but like, four years is probably double, so you're at that, like, eight years at a company, which is a long time. Yeah, I'm curious. So you you moved to developer relations, like, what? What made you want to focus on that in the first place? Yeah, Angie Jones this one was very organic. So I'm pretty like strategic, but I didn't like strategize this one. So I really just enjoy writing, you know, engaging with community, speaking at conferences, those sorts of things. So I just did those things in my spare time, basically as an engineer. And I remember, it was when I was an engineer at Twitter that I was, I was basically killing myself because the demand had grew for like me to do workshops in like conference talks, and so now I'm traveling the world and doing this stuff. But hey, again, this is in my spare time, which is still during work hours. Twitter was, was kind enough to allow me to do this, but I still needed to do my engineering job. So I remember being in Europe one time, and I needed to do a full day workshop. So it's like eight hours I'm teaching a workshop, and then I would go back to my hotel room that night. And now it's like us hours, and I'm working like another eight hour shift to kind of do my job. And I was like, Okay, this is getting old really quickly. And I just was talking to a friend like, Man, I wish there was a way I could get paid for this other stuff that I actually like to do. And and they told me, like, oh, there is. There's, like, developer relations. I didn't even know that was a thing. And so I started looking into that a bit more. And I was like, Yes, this is exactly what I like to do. Because even as an engineer, I would work as an adjunct professor. I love teaching. I love, like, helping other engineers, like, learn something new, like, that's really satisfying and rewarding to me. So yeah, I was like, I take the leap. I'm going to do it and and fortunately, I had made some acquaintance and network with people at all of these conferences that I'd been going to. And so I knew the CEO at appletoos, and kind of shared with him, like, you know, my goals, my new goals. And fortunately, he thought that they needed that exact skill set in house, and so we kind of made that work. Oh,

Ryan Burgess
I love that. Even hearing that that you basically pitched it essentially too, of like, Hey, this is and they're like, Yeah, we kind of do need this. And so that's so cool. I love that aspect too. And I can relate to of just like what you said about the community and teaching others is like, I don't know there's something rewarding. I think that, like, I love that about the tech community. I mean, there's a lot of negative too, but there's a lot of positive that come around it from folks like yourself, who just are like, I want to give back and get and feel rewarded for it too. It's not like you're doing it, just because it's like, you enjoy it too. And I think that that's amazing. And I think we need more of that too, where it's like, hey, how do we, like teach others? And like, we all had to start somewhere, and it was not easy. And so it's nice having folks like yourself who are like, Yeah, I enjoy teaching, and I want to give back. I love that part of our community, and that there's like, things like Twitter, like working there, it's like, Twitter has been great for that, where it's like, it's built this community where you can learn from others. So Developer Relations is a great field, like it really, truly is. So it was like, nice that it brought your passion. You're like, Hey, you can actually do this for a living now. Angie, Angie Jones right? Exactly, exactly. And I would credit a lot of that too, like the networking of things like Twitter and, you know, conferences and stuff like that. You don't even know what's out there until, you know, you become a part of a external community and kind of see what's going on in the in the

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, absolutely, I think, like. I'm always encouraging people, like, at least just, you know, maybe it's not Twitter, but like, find your like, community where there is other folks and having those conversations, it's so meaningful. Like, you don't have to engage all the time, or, you know, be involved a lot. It's just like a great spot to kind of have that external immunity. Yeah, yeah. So being in leadership, I always loved, like, people going down this path, because I think it's so interesting. Because, like I said earlier, it's not something that you set out or, like, strategize early in your career, but it just kind of happens. And I'm curious. Like, one thing I always like to ask leaders is, like, both their leadership style, like Angie, like, how would you describe how you lead? Or, you know, I don't know if it has to be this philosophy of your leadership, but like, how do you approach leadership in general? Angie Jones Yeah, you know, um, even before I went into leadership, I was always a cheerleader of people, right? And so, um, I think people who, who might follow me online, will see that I'm like, always rooting for people and trying to encourage them and want them to be the their best sales. And so I approach leadership kind of the same way I think of I'm like, Oh, I'm like, a manager. That's like, akin to a celebrity manager, right? And so you're the star, you're the talent. Let me find opportunities that help you grow, that help get your name out there, that help you shine, that help elevate you like that's how I think my leadership style is. Is like getting to know the person, what their goals are. Sure we do have business goals. Let me figure out how those things align, so that your entire profile is elevated. You know,

Ryan Burgess
I love that so much, because I think part of being a great leader is that your your job is absolutely that is like, how do you make the people on your team shine, and even just finding the right things for them to shine? Like, yes, like you said there is a business goal. So like, if someone on your team wants to build robots, but you're a software company, you're like, I can't give you that, you know, like, so like, is there something that I can try and help that, or maybe I have contacts at another company that could help you? Like, I think about that is, like, how do you tie the you know, what someone's interested in what they're passionate about to like, how the outcome that your company needs, and hopefully you can find that it might not be in your team, right? Like it could be in another team. So how are you trying to figure that out? I think that's so important as a leader, to be looking out for your team. And like, how do you think about their progression? It's not your job to do it all for them. Like I always say that as well, but I think it's I've seen leaders too, where they you can see them climbing the ladder, and you're like, Wait, wasn't the last time they promoted someone or did something for someone else's career. And I think that in order to be a great leader, you need to, you can look out for yourself, but you also have to be looking out for others, and I love your approach, and that that's what you highlights. Do you think like as you moved into leadership at aptly, tools and now block, you know, throughout the years? Do you think it's evolved? Has your leadership changed at all? Or how do you think about it? Do you approach things differently? Angie Jones I think, I think my my fundamental approach and values have probably stayed the same. Definitely some evolution there, though, like I said at aplithuse, this just kind of happens. So it wasn't anything that I prepared for, and I quickly learned Ryan that, like you have to, you have to put in the work. These are not, like, interchangeable skills, right? Like, I think I'm pretty good software engineer. That doesn't translate to, like, you're going to be an excellent like, software engineering manager or leader, you know, it just doesn't. And so I had to take a step back and you have to put your ego to the side for this, right? Because you're used to, like being a star, you're great, like, and now it's like, oh, wait, why am I not, like, amazing, just right out bad, you know? It's like, oh, because I, I, like, nurtured that craft like I went to school, I learned even while on the job, and so I had to humble myself to say, okay, these are new skills that you have to pick up. You have to put in the work to learn them, right? And so I took classes on leadership. I still like read lots of books and things about leadership, and I also learned that it's not like one one style fits all right, like you have different people here, and each one of these people are different, the way that you communicate them with them may need to bear. Like, all sorts of things need to bury. So just learning about that. And I got older, too, Ryan. I mean older, like, the gap between like, the people you're leading increases, and so now I have, like, this new generation of people that I'm leading. And it's like, way, like my old strategies don't work with these folks. And so I even took a class. I love LinkedIn learning, by the way. So LinkedIn learning had this course about basically like Gen Z for managers. And so I took this course to just kind of learn more about like that generation and their style of communication, feedback, all of that, like one, I'm just gonna throw this out. There's a freebie for y'all. One thing that I that stuck with me was they grew up in a social media era. As soon as you post something that's instant feedback that comes in, whether that's likes comments or things like that, whether that's good or bad, you know, you're getting this instant feedback, so they're used to that, right? And so I was like, Oh, that's really interesting. And I just started incorporating that in my learning, my leading style, where I'm just continuously giving feedback, whether it be good or bad, and people are very receptive to that.

Ryan Burgess
I love that I hadn't thought of that. Like, I mean, it makes so much sense. And I think my my style is typically been to give as much, you know, give feedback constantly, and like, don't sit on it and don't hold on to it, especially, you know, critical feedback there, or constructive feedback. You're like, I should tell them in the moment so that they're, you know, understand that. But then equating that to the social media era, I'm like, That makes so much sense. You're right. Like, it's that instant gratification or just instant feedback that you kind of just get used to. And I'm sure, like, it even shows up, of like, you know, just even sometimes emojis or things like that on Slack. Like, if someone's like, here's my work, and you're like, oh, hearts, hearts, hearts. And like, This is amazing. It's like, that can be just enough to say, like, you're doing the right thing, or, Hey, this could be better. It's like, in those moments. So I love that. That's amazing. That's Angie Jones right. And it's so simple. It's like, oh, here's, here's my PR, and you put a fire emoji on it, very simple, but that's a form of feedback, something they relate to. I'm on the right track. She's happy. I'm, you know, I'm doing what I need to do, kind of thing, yeah,

Ryan Burgess
yeah. And it's so important to get that, like feedback too, to even just the positive. I'm I'm guilty of this. Like, I try to strive at telling someone if something's not going well, and to be like, really in the moment of doing that as quick as possible, because you don't want it to, like, go on forever. But then oftentimes you, or at least me personally, sometimes I forgot, like, oh, the positive reinforcement or positive feedback is so important too. Like, you just said that fire emoji is like, oh, Angie said that I'm on the right track, like I'm doing the right thing. And so that's so helpful, too. You don't want people wondering if they're doing the right thing, or, you know, having that imposter syndrome of, like, Am I doing the right thing? Am I doing a good job? It's like, if you can remove that from their state of mind, that's huge. So, yeah, I love this. This is amazing. I I learned something right now, just like thinking about that differently for for our Gen Z folks, like, I think that's a really good call out. I love that. It even changed your leadership style. Like, are you just kind of reframed it a little bit, because I think what I hear how you lead, and I think is important is flexibility, right? Like, you mentioned different people that you have, you know, they're people you're dealing with. It's not code. It's not binary. It's like, yes, it is very much like, there's, there's this, like, squishiness of human beings. And I think it's really cool to just even think, like, oh, well, now I'm leading Gen Z. I'm not that generation. How do they think differently? And they do. And so you could just put your head in the sand and go, Well, this is the way that we do it, so get on board. You're like, Nah, I want to figure out how to, like, just, like, change my way of thinking, too. And you may not change everything, but like, I love that flexibility aspect. Yep, yep. So let's get back to developer relations, mainly because I love what you said. You're like, I didn't even realize this is a thing. And I feel like in the same boat, as much as like, I Oh, I can't remember when I first started speaking at conferences, or I was never a big teacher, like doing the workshops I have done it. Didn't know that I would love it. I always thought I would be like, No, I can't do that. But it's something that I've loved, too, is giving back to the community, teaching people that like something I've learned and so conferences, things like that, was always something that was just kind of fun, and also put me out of my comfort zone to do that. But I never really thought of developed relations as a thing, either. And I'm curious, what does it entail to be in that role, like, what does that. Look like. Why is it important for companies to have that too? Because a lot of companies today don't have it. I think more and more companies are adding it, but not every company does. And so I'd be curious to get your thoughts Angie Jones on that. Yeah, sure. I think that this role is, uh, it's pretty special because it requires like skills that we often think of as like, opposite types of skills, right? So you need, like, pretty strong technical skills, which they call the hard skills, but then you also need to have empathy and, like, be able to communicate very well, and those are the soft skills, you know. And so it's like this, this combination of both that I think, basically makes like, this really special engineer who's able to go deep into, like, the the technical details of like, what it takes to maybe build an app using your product or something like that, but then they're also able to empathize with, like people who are working in Production Development, or they're an indie developer or entrepreneur with, you know, not a lot of time or resources being able to, like, I said, communicate this in an effective way, where, you know, you have engineers of varying backgrounds and levels, who will be able to understand that. So I think a lot of, like I said, the teaching that I did at at the colleges really helped prepare me for this sort of role. Because, you know, you have a classroom full of students, all who are there, maybe for different reasons, who all need to get this content, and some people understand it better this way and that way. So what's the least common denominator to break that down and speak like in plain English for people without context or background in this stuff already, so that everyone is successful by time they leave that course? You know. And I think that that relates really well with developer relations, you know,

Ryan Burgess
wow. Yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. I love what you said. Of like it you have to have that deep technical knowledge, but what I also heard you say, too is that you also have to know when, like, at what level, right, like, because there's different levels of people that you're dealing with. It's not like you're on your team, that you're kind of, you know, day in day out, and you're like, oh, I can go really deep technically with my team and talk through these scenarios. You're dealing with people at all different levels, and quite frankly, even just what they care about, like you said, it could be that entrepreneur or that startup, or someone who's, you know, an enterprise, it's all those varying degrees of what they care about. And so you have to get to that level, and probably context switch too, because, like, you're dealing with someone this hour that's dealing with enterprise, and then the next hour you're dealing with someone who's, like, the sole entrepreneur by themselves and and I think that makes a ton of sense. I'm assuming that one of the biggest challenges, and maybe I'm wrong. I'd love to hear more of you the challenges that come along with developer relations, but communication has to be one of the biggest challenges. Yeah, Angie Jones it definitely is. There's a lot of brilliant engineers who are not great at like explaining these concepts to layman folks in some areas, like, yeah, yeah. And you think, Oh, well, I'm talking to another developer. It's not exactly a layman but, I mean, could be right? I mean, you know, they could be they, they could be one year in, and you're like, talking at a level from someone with, like, 15 years of experience and background and context, or whatever you know. And so all of that is important, even the communication style of how you present something to someone. So I'll see. I'm a Java champion. I love Java, right? And so there's this thing in the Java ecosystem where for a while we weren't putting out new releases of the of the language, and now we're putting them out like every six months, right? And so it's kind of hard for people to keep up. But then Ryan, think about, like people who do work at, like an enterprise company or a bank, like we talked about, they're not jumping from version eight to version 20 overnight, because, like, you gave some fancy presentation at a conference, you know what I mean. And so that's where that empathy kind of comes in as well. And I've seen people who will communicate to those to them, oh, you're still on AIDS, all that. So, like, you know, and like, there's a sense of judgment there. You're lacking empathy, um, empathy, as well as, like, kind of understanding what it's like to work in the real in the real world. Like, yeah, of course, I would jump to 20. If I could, and I was chasing, like, the trending new tools and features. But most companies, that's not their goal. They don't care about that. It's like, we have business objectives to reach and to make such a switch, you better have some good justification on like, what that means for the business, you know? Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
what's the impact? Like, what is this going to do for us that Angie Jones you just want to use a new tool that just can't be the reason? No,

Ryan Burgess
I think, I think that could be a factor of like, Hey, we've been on this legacy code. It's really hard to work with. But there again, you start to peel back the onion, you're like, oh, it's hard to work with. Do you think you'll save some time by going to this, oh yes, or they have this new feature that will enable us to do x, y and z that we weren't able to do before. You can pretty much sell it and speak to those things. But also, it comes at a cost too, right? Like you can't just easily. I mean, it's getting easier and easier to upgrade Java like, you know, thankfully, I think more of the releases that's getting easier to do that. But it's not something that you can just upgrade and jump to the next version, really easy. It is a disruption that happens on your team or releasing the product that you're trying to build that is the most important thing, or it could introduce bugs that you know to your customers. There's a lot of things that you have to take into consideration. So I think you said that very well, is how important that is, and like you have to describe the impact that it's going to have. It's a business. At the end of the day, no one's paying us to just slay with the greatest and greatest and have the most fun as engineers and build it's like, no, you kind of have to build something that people need and use and can rely on, that's Angie Jones right. That's exactly right. And so, like all of those, need to go into like, consideration when, when you're out here, supposedly as a developer advocate, like you're advocating for a developer but you need to understand, like, what their what their reality is, you know,

Ryan Burgess
yeah, not shame them for, you know, not being on the latest and greatest. I mean, we've all seen it too, like on Twitter and things like that. It's the worst. It's like, and you're like, Yeah, but you're lacking context. You're lacking, like, why they haven't chose to go to the latest and greatest? There's good reason. I'm so used to the front end community, too, where it's like, every, you know, every other day there's a new framework, and people like, Oh, you're still on this one. And you're like, Oh my goodness. Like, you can't just hop to every other framework. It's like, it's, just doesn't work like that, Angie Jones right? Maybe on your side, hobby projects, but yeah, not, not on, you know, a commercial product, you can't do that.

Ryan Burgess
It's just not worth it either. Like it's it's introducing so much complexity, and people have to learn that too. Like on your team, they have to take the time to learn it. Yeah, there's just so much that goes into that. So I'm glad you called that out. That that's like, that is a challenge, like dealing with different people and understanding being empathetic too. So you mentioned communities. And I want to talk a little bit about communities, because I think that is I don't know something I care about, and clearly you do as well. And I'm curious, like, how do you approach building communities, nurturing them, thinking about community, whether it be from the developer relations side of it, but even just personally, I see you out there, you know, on Twitter and, you know, up leveling people and just sharing great things, you know, how do you think about that? How do you think what's important to community? How do you add to it? Yeah, you'd love to hear that. Angie Jones I think community is so important. I i go back to my my beginnings in tech, and when I went to college, I didn't know anything about computers, programming, anything like that, right? And so in taking like, my first programming course, there were several other people in the course who were like, saying same thing. They didn't know anything about this. We're all here trying to figure it out together. But that quickly became, like this community of like, just folks in the class who were all trying to learn something new. And so we just start helping each other. Maybe we form study groups, and maybe we quiz each other, you know, we help each other with the homework and things like that, right? And I think that those values were instilled in me there that, you know, you're not, you don't have to do this alone, because this stuff is hard. It's ever changing, like there's, there's just a lot of variables at play that taking it on by yourself is probably not the best way to approach it. And so when I started working, like full time, you know, I always was involved in just like the various communities within like these larger companies, whether that be like, Oh, the Java group or the women group or, you know, the black folk group or whatever groups, yeah, and so you just start having like these community of people that share, like. The same values and possibly the same goals and things like that that you can just kind of lean on. And then I started looking externally for, like the broader like tech community, you know, and that's just been so helpful for me, personally in my career, you know, like people that you can ask questions to and you don't have to worry about that, like getting back to your boss that you don't, you actually don't know a clue about this thing that you have to work on. Um, you know, are people just freely sharing resources. Like, that's why I started blocking. It was like we, we were interviewing for a role, and I had like, this amazing team of people that I learned so much from. We all learned so much from each other. And so we were, like, operating at this really efficient level, and then when we needed to bring someone else in, like, no, no one we interviewed had this knowledge or or like, these skills, and I was like, we're hoarding this. I should blog about some of these techniques and stuff like, and so that's why I got into blogging, was just to, like, share it outside of the four walls that I was working with and kind of help the overall tech community, you know, up leveling things that I learned internally or whatever, and so that's my view on community is very precious to me. It's something that I feel I need in order to be successful, and I try my very best to give back to community as well.

Ryan Burgess
I love that well said. I love that. It just instilled in you so early on, and you're right, like, being in school, it's like, it's so hard learning programming in general, or that first, like, maybe you're not, maybe you're in a boot camp, maybe you're just learning on your own. It's it's hard, and it's like, yeah, and I mean, I still learn things today. Like, I think that's the thing too, is there's always new approaches. You can get the same result but done in a different way in programming that you're like, Oh, cool. I didn't know that technique. You know, it's like that. That's really cool to see. So I love that approach on on the community aspect of it, was there anything that you know, building community that you like, maybe learn about yourself that you didn't realize was even important to you? Like you said you're like, I learned that pretty early on. It's instilled me, but like, have there been other things that you've seen value? I guess maybe that's the way to put it is, like, have you gotten other values from your community, community building that you didn't realize when you set out thinking community was important? Yeah, Angie Jones I think, I think one of the things is, I always thought I was talking to folks who were kind of like, on the same level as I am. And so community is so diverse, right? You have people who don't even work in tech, but they want to break into it, or, you know, people who are are retired from Tech. Like, that's how diverse this is. Like, it varies, right? And so that's something I don't it sounds obvious now, but it's something that I didn't think about until, you know, I was really deep in, like, kind of external tech communities, and it's, I think that's helped me, like, not assume things about People, or back to that communication style of just like speaking at the least common denominator. Like, I see people all the time, they'll throw around, like, acronyms, or, you know, um, or even talk about, like tech that's not been around for like, 20 years, so it's like, feels like an inside joke, you know, or, you know, just things like that. So anytime I, like, communicate, I try to provide, like, a little bit of context. If I use it acronyms, yeah, everybody in the room might already know what this means, but there could be one person that doesn't, I don't know. So I'm just gonna assume there, there might be, and I'm just gonna put it out there, you know what I mean. So those sorts of things I think are important, and just helping people feel welcome in community, helping them feel like they have a place there. They don't feel silly, you know, asking questions or feel embarrassed because they don't know something, you know. Oh,

Ryan Burgess
well said Angie, I think too, of like, even just sometimes spelling out the acronym or, you know, speaking to a term that you're like, oh, and that's what this means. It just does make people feel more welcome and included. And there'll be that one person in the room who just was, like, a little shy to raise their hand. It might even be that person like myself, who's been, you know, in tech for so long that I'm like, I forget what that acronym is. And you're like, I should know this. I'm embarrassed to ask. And it's like, yeah, it's just, it's just like, it's, there's too many things to remember all the time too. And so like speaking at a really, like, welcoming level, I think you can actually open up more deeper conversations. And everyone's on that same level when you're. Talking, I think is so important. It doesn't matter if you're brand new to tech or been there forever. It's like there's so much to remember and think about that. It's fine if you don't know something, but it's hard to raise your hand. And so I think, like you're just inviting more folks to the conversation by just, yeah, being speaking to it better. And I Angie Jones don't think people like do that intentionally, or even realize they're doing it, but it's something that I've learned to just be kind of conscious of and check myself on. You know? Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
and I think it speaks to the communication Angie like, I think to me, communication is something that I've always wanted to do better at. I don't think anyone's perfect at communication. Yes, there's people who I'm like, even as you like, in leadership roles, as you get higher and higher in a company, like, if you're a CEO, you have to be so good at communication, but they mess up too. But it's like, I think we grow and get better and better at communication, and it's this constant evolving learning aspect of it too. And you're so even that you're like, I learned that. Yeah, people don't all know this, and I have to invite them and be a lot more thoughtful in how I approach this. And I think the person who's super technical, if you spell it an acronym, they know that's not offending them, right? Like, it's like, it's, it's, it doesn't hurt, yes, it's like, and it's like, yeah, I know. I knew that it's cool. Like, yeah, it's, it's, so it's like, it's kind of funny. When you think of it that way, you're like, yeah, why? Why did we try and make this acronym or make it hard for people? It's like, it doesn't make sense. All right. I'd be curious, as we're maybe, you know, coming up later in the conversation, you've had a lot of experience, especially well as an software engineer, but even making the transition to developer relations. And I'd be curious, like, what kind of advice do you have for folks maybe wanting to get into developer relations, maybe folks that are already in it, or doing a bit of that conference, speaking already, and, you know, maybe wanting to do it more full time? Angie Jones Yeah, that's a great question. I actually spoke with someone this week, and so I'm gonna pull from, like, some of the things that I talked to them about. So they were a developer who, you know, kind of like me, were like, you know, I like when I do that public speaking thing, I like writing things at work and stuff like that. And, you know, I might be pretty good at developer relations, but I don't have any experience in that, per se. And I feel like a lot of the advice that's out there now is for people you know might be looking to get into developer relations as their first job. So I'm not going to speak to that. There's a wealth of information there. I'll speak to the people that's already in tech and you're like, you know, I might want to do a pivot, right? One of the things I'll say is that your developer background is super beneficial in this role, and people might not realize that out the jump, you know, they're just like, oh yeah, I've done development, but not necessarily this other stuff. And so I don't know if this is relevant. I'll tell you, it's very relevant, not just the coding part, but like I talked about earlier, just the process of software development and understanding how that works, and understanding that you're not coding on your personal GitHub in a vacuum, but there's, like, lots of other functions that you have to interact with. Like, you know, product and sales, in marketing and design, and like, you're getting a lot of requirements from a lot of people, and all of that factors into what you're doing. And I think like, just understanding, like those sorts of things is really powerful in a developer relations role, because you're able to empathize and you're able to understand, like, what people's circumstances are, right? I'll also say, like, if, if so, I'll tell my story of how I did this. I was doing, like, the the blogging, the public speaking, the podcasting and all of that. But I wasn't doing it for a company, like I said. I was just doing it on the side. And so that's a great way to kind of build some skill. One, to see if you need to, like, this sort of thing before you, like, jump into it. And then two like, are you good at it, right? And you'll then have, like, a little bit of experience doing it. I put all of that on my resume, uh, Ryan, uh, as a section like, like, oh, you know how you have your sections of, did I did this job, and you have the company name, the years, the title and all that, right? So I put one for developer advocate. And I had the title Developer Advocate. I put the years that I've been doing all of this stuff, the only thing that was missing was a company name. I didn't do it company. I just left it off, and I put the bullet points, or here's where I've spoken, here's like, things I've written, here's videos, here's courses and all of that. And so I show that, hey, yeah, I haven't been doing this for a company officially, but I have been doing it right, and that showed, like, the experience level. And so when I went into developer relations, I was brought in as a senior developer advocate, not like a junior, because, yeah. Haven't been doing it formally, but I have been doing it. You know? I know how to do it. I would,

Ryan Burgess
quite frankly, sometimes doing it on your own is actually harder, right? Like, because you're, like, You're doing all these things that a developer advocate would have done for a said company, but like, you're doing it all on your own, right? Like, there's so much more work that goes Angie Jones into that, the motivation they even do it, right? Yes, oh, man.

Ryan Burgess
Like, because you still had that other job, Angie, like you said when you were doing speaking at, yeah, like, it's like, it is a distraction from both. Like, you're, you're trying to do both things, and it's harder to do that when you were like, if someone's like, yeah, you have the next week or two to no interruptions to write a talk for the said conference. You're like, amazing, like that. That's awesome to have dedicated time, paid time, too, right? Like, that's like a lot of these conferences that people are talking at, it's like, yeah, you're not getting paid. You're, you're, you're just doing this on the side. You're finding time in your evenings, weekends to put together a talk and you're going to said conference. And so, yeah, I'm glad that you spelled that out, because that is important. That is a skill. You are absolutely doing it. I should probably take that advice. I have recently put the podcast as one of my things that I didn't that was just something I've done for years on the side. And I'm like, wait, this technically is something that I'm doing. It is a skill set, and so I'm glad you called that out. Yeah, I'd be curious too, as as just as we're wrapping up, one thing that I've been thinking a lot about lately, too, is the developer relations industry is changing drastically, and I would love to hear your thoughts, of like, where do you think it's going? Where are the trends going? What should we be watching in the next, like, four or five years? Angie Jones Yeah, you asked me a question earlier about, like, companies having a DevRel, you know, initiative, and not all of them in it. So as as we see DevRel kind of picking up, I don't advise companies that don't need this to just do it for the sake of doing it right, like, you should probably understand why you will want such a function. And usually it's to kind of enable developers to be successful with your products, basically. And so if you don't have a developer audience or something like that, like, you probably don't need this sort of thing, as far as like, up and coming stuff or things we should should probably watch out for like the I think covid was a big shift for developer relations. Like, there used to be tons and tons of travel involved if you wanted to talk to people, you had to get on a plane. That's changing, and now people are warming up more to like virtual content and things like that. Video is is taking off. Um, I joke with my friends and my husband all the time because they're constantly sending me things to watch, you know, like on Twitter or LinkedIn or something like that. And if I'm looking through them, most of them are video. I can't watch them because, because I can't, I can't turn the audio on right now, you know, like I'm doing something else, or more playing or something I don't have my headphones, something like that. But I say all that to say, like, video is really taken out. Everybody's creating video and things like that, and so, um, I really like what Jason lichtoff is doing, so I'm gonna give him a shout out. Um, like he's he's looking at how to make this stuff more entertaining. I always learned, like, when I first started public speaking about tech, uh, mentors would tell me, like, yes, you're going to educate, but you're also going to entertain people want to see a show, you know? And so I'm seeing more and more like the need for to incorporate that in the content that we're creating, right? Um, everybody's as more and more developer apps out there that more more like docs and blogs and things like that, and they all start looking the same, and you just don't want to see them anymore, so you have to kind of lean into the entertaining side of it. Some might call that unfortunate. That's where we are, right where we're living in an era where people they have short attention spans and they just kind of want something that excites them, and so that's where I see us moving as an industry. So that's why you see, like a lot of the kind of people who have personalities and stuff, they might kind of land a DevRel role or something like that, because that like it or hate it. That is a factor, right? That does help people want to consume your your content and learn about your products and what you're building,

Ryan Burgess
yes, and I love you. Called Out Jason's content like, to me, I actually love it. I love that the quality and that these trying to bring, you, know, just something different to the space and and I'm like, all for that, because I think it is like we are fighting for attention. And with everything we do, whether you're watching Netflix, whether you're watching YouTube, whether you're on Twitter, you're playing games, whatever it is, everybody is fighting for your attention. And so yeah, unfortunately, that's the game. You got to stand out and try and, you know, grab that attention. So well said, Angie, thanks so much for joining me. I thoroughly love this conversation. If people are wanting to get in touch with you, where can they find you? Online? Angie Jones Yeah, online. You can find me. I do still live on Twitter, slash x. My here is tech girl, 1908, also pretty active on LinkedIn, so you can just look up Angie Jones. I'm the one in the pink. And then at TBD, we have a discord. So if anybody's interested in any of this financial software that we're working on that's open source, you can go to TBD dot website. We do have a discord and I hang out there every day as well. And if anybody wants to buy me a drink, I forgot to say what my favorite cocktail is. It's Malibu and pineapple juice. Ooh,

Ryan Burgess
nice. So now, yeah, if you need to get advice from Angie, you know how to get her interested in speaking with you. I love that. Yeah. How do we forget that? We kind of just went in the topic and, yeah, I love that. Well, thank you so much, Angie. I've loved having you on. Thanks so much. Angie Jones Thank you, Ryan.