Sips of Wisdom: Interview with April Wensel

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, welcome to a new episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast. Typically, in the past, been recording bi weekly, but now I have some extra time, so I'm gonna start adding in some interviews with some amazing folks across the industry, and for our second interview session, I have joined with me April Wenzel, who has been a guest on previous podcasts, or I guess one back couple years ago, live on stage at conference in Atlanta. So I'm really excited, April, for you to be back. Great to see you again. April, can you give us a brief introduction of who you are, what you do, and what your happy hour beverage of choice is? Sure?

April Wensel
Yeah, it is good to see you again. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. It's been, it's been too long. I think it really has that's true. Yeah, no, for sure. It's like something happened. I feel like in the past few years, the kind of the years flew by, right? But anyway, so yes, I am. I have kind of an odd job. A company is called compassionate coding, which I have been doing for eight years now. And I teach emotional intelligence skills to engineers and other people in tech, trying to help them with the human side of software development, which I think originally didn't get that much attention in the industry, although in recent years, I do think we've made a lot of strides there, which is great. My background, though, is, you know, kind of typical. I studied computer science. I worked in a bunch of startups in the Bay Area for close to a decade, and that's where I saw the need for skills like this, and that's why I started the company. And so, yeah, that's, that's what I've been focused on now. And my beverage today, since we're recording in the morning, I'm having one of my little electrolyte, you know, vitamin drinks here in a slightly scuffed up cup I got from a 50k that I did a few years back.

Ryan Burgess
Very cool, I mean. And the color just like pops too. It looks great. So it, yeah, it's like, it's a tasty drink. It is awesome. I am having a since it is morning, I am having a ice latte, just to kind of get me going this morning. I feel like it, not only is it one of them, it is my second one. So it might hit me in the middle episode where we're just like, you'll be like, Ryan, you're just extra fast in how you're talking. Yeah, exactly. I look forward to that. Then, all right, everybody, stay tuned. It's

Ryan Burgess
about to exactly get some energy in this one, and you bet the electrolytes. I think we'll be good. This is gonna be awesome. Well, maybe to even just start like, you know, yes, you've been working as a software engineer for years, which then led to founding, compassionate coding, which I've been a fan for. I didn't realize it's been that long already, like eight years, and like when we met, you were doing that, and it was something that I've always really seen a need for. And I think time and time again is reminder we need it. Need it again. I think it's also that emotional intelligence, piece of it you mentioned is so important for what I think of very senior folks. I mean, I think it's important in general. Don't, don't get me wrong. But when you start to think about a lot of like, what makes you that much stronger in your career? It's a lot of those skills. It really, truly is. It's like, you've kind of developed the engineering, technical skills, and that's great. You're building experience as you're doing that. But then there's this gap that's not really necessarily taught to you, or you're just kind of thrown in the mix, and I think it's a missing piece. And so I've always really, truly believed in, like, the work that you're doing. And so I'm excited to talk more about this on this episode. So yeah, without further ado, like I'm asking you the question, I don't need to sell it too much. You'll be able to talk about it better than me. But yeah, I'd love to hear a little deeper on your journey as an engineer, and then moving into building something so great, like compassionate coding.

April Wensel
Yeah. So, you know, I did what they what they called job hopping, I guess when I was in the Bay Area, because I, you know, I'd studied computer science, I was like, All right, you know, I love coding. This is going to be great. And I got into the industry. I started at big company, Sony, and, you know, I was there less than a year, just because I felt like, in sometimes in the big companies, you can't really make much of a contribution. And it's like I was sitting there and, you know, I was, like, a very kind of conscientious, very highly motivated type, a kind of person, and I just feel like it wasn't really appreciated. And so then it was like, not, I wasn't very motivated there. So I was like, Okay, I probably should be at a smaller company, which is why, then I looked at startups. And, you know, I got into startups. But then you kind of, I just felt this like lack of fulfillment, like it felt like we were working on things that weren't really making the world a better place to be, you know, fully honest. And I was already starting to hit me then. And then I started to work at places that I thought were gonna make the world a better place. Like they had good missions, and it seemed like that, but then they had sort of internal, like interpersonal problems at the company. And so I was just like, Oh my gosh. Like, everywhere I go, there's something like, you know. And I was like, as I thought on it. Or I was like, Well, you know, it probably has something to do with the fact that in tech, we're so concerned with, like, the bottom line and the machines and all of this, like, very like, rigid kind of like stuff, and nobody's really talking about, like, the, what they call the soft, squishy human stuff, and that sort of dismissed and made fun of. I mean, I can't tell you, like, how often people like, oh, that's just a soft talk, and that's not important, and whatever. And it's like, it's dismissed. And I'm like, okay, but this is like, actually, what's causing our projects to fail? It's causing burnout in the industry. It's causing people to not feel welcome in the industry. It's causing us to build things that are making the world not a great place. So I was like, something has to happen here. And so on a personal level, I got, I was really burnt out, and I started my own kind of personal development journey. I started reading, you know, like self help books, I guess you could call them, or, you know, personal psychology books, or whatever you want to call them. And so, you know, I started reading about flow, and I started reading about self compassion and compassion and all these things. I was like, you know, a light bulb went off. And I was like, all these things that I'm reading in these books about how to live a happy life, how to like, you know, take care of your well being, is like the opposite of what's rewarded in tech and so, and like, what makes, you know, sometimes a good engineer. And so I was like, something needs to change here. And so that's kind of what inspired it was, like my own kind of journey, and then wanting to help others in the industry. I

Ryan Burgess
love that too. And I love that, like, even the journey of, like, you were essentially bored about the larger company, because you're like, Oh, I'm not able to make, like, the impact that I want to have. And, and I totally see that. Like, there's a lot of points where working at big companies, you're you're just like, you're focused on a small task, right? Like, for better or worse, like, sometimes that's really great is you're like, I own this, like, piece of software, and I do it really, really well. I know the ins and outs of it. I'm not spread too thin. I just know that. But it can be very boring. You're like, oh, that's all I'm doing. And then the startup world is like, I feel, for me, at least, was like, I was doing so many things, which I kind of liked. It felt like more that you were having that impact. But then I also love what you said too, is like, is the company doing something good? Like, are they actually impacting the world in a good way? And I think that is amazing to hear. It's like, you want to be passionate about the work you do and passionate about the company in which whatever it's delivering. So I love that. And I guess you just couldn't find it. You're like, I can't find what I want, so I'm just gonna create it exactly.

April Wensel
And it could be out there, you know, maybe other people have found it. Maybe I gave up too, but I tried a lot of places, you know, I like to say I was job hopping before it was cool, because now, like, everybody does it, or whatever, back when I was doing it was like, oh, you know, you should stay at a place for two years otherwise, you know, but I was like, whatever. I mean, I do think one thing that just helped, like, on my journey is, like, being willing to question the status quo. I mean, I think even, you know, not to play this card, but like being a woman in tech, right? Like, I just didn't even think about it when I first started, like, oh, maybe I, you know, maybe this isn't for me, because there's not a lot of ways, like, whatever, like, I like doing this, I'm going to do it. And so I think that's a really healthy attitude is, like, it means, of course, it's hard sometimes to question the status quo. I mean, back in the day, like, I think we, we, you know, connected on Twitter, like, years ago, and like, I used to get a lot of, a lot of flack on Twitter, just for, just for sharing these very which I think are, like, benign ideas about how, you know, software engineers can care about people. But for some reason, that made me the target of a lot of hate online. But that said, you know, I think that's part of the challenge, challenging the status quo, that's just part of the game.

Ryan Burgess
So in doing this, especially that like Twitter, let's, let's kind of touch on that, because that is really difficult. And, you know, here you are doing something that you're like, I believe in this. It's like, a positive aspect, and you're getting a lot of, like, negative comments too. Like, which is, like, it just feels like, completely the opposite of what should happen, right? Like, you're, like, I'm talking positive stuff, but somehow it attracts some negativity. How did that affect you? Actually, maybe I'll start there. Like, because you're, you're still doing it, it didn't prevent you from your mission, which I, I'm very much impressed by, yeah, I

April Wensel
mean, I'll be honest. So at the early days, it kind of motivated me, because I was like, you know, no running into so much, like, resistance. I was like, clearly, I hit a nerve. And this is important. I think a big part of it came from I wrote this blog post about how Stack Overflow was kind of like this representative, like entity of a lot of the problems with tech, because there was this kind of arrogance on there. And I think it wasn't very welcoming to new people. And it was like, you know, oh, you're stupid for asking that question. And it was this very kind of, like intellectual arrogance, like atmosphere. And so I wrote about that, and there were a lot of people that, you know, online like that use Stack Overflow that got very defensive about it. And so, you know, a lot of the back channels of the Internet where the trolls hang out. I think my name got circulated. And so I think that's where a lot of that came from, to be honest. But I think, you know, just psychologically, it does make sense, like, when you're challenging what people take for granted, like, oh, tech is great. I love working with tech. If you're saying we need to have empathy, and that's not my skill set, I'm going to become obsolete in tech if this actually takes on you know what? I mean? There's something I think. To that. And so I think that that's a big part of it. But yeah, terms of how it affected me, it motivated me at first, but actually, during the pandemic, it just got to be too much. I actually did step back a bit. So, you know, like I said, I'm human, and I had to step back a bit because it was just it was too much, because during the pandemic, interestingly, because everyone was trapped inside and, like, online, and everyone emotions were just very high. Everything online was, like, dialed up to 11. It was just like it was just so much. And I think, I think what, really, what did it for me, was like I was getting it sort of from both sides, so to speak, if we could divide the sides in the sense of, on one side, like, Oh, you're trying to change things too much, and you're speaking out too much, and then on the other side, why aren't you speaking up about and it was, like, it was just too much from but like, I was like, Okay, I can't I'm never gonna make everyone happy, and so I'm gonna go hide away now. And so I actually totally, like, cleared out my Twitter, like I did for a while, like, in terms of, I deleted all my old stuff, and I just like, I need a break. Like, this is not I had to make that call where it was, like, affecting my mental health to a degree where I was like, nope, like, I'm not gonna be able to help anyone if I keep doing this. So I stepped back. I have, I mean, I totally disappeared and delete my account, though I was definitely tempted at times, and I was just kind of behind the scenes, still doing the trainings with companies that I do, but I wasn't, like, having this big, like, public presence, because anyone who did was just getting, like, a lot of attacks online and stuff. So anyway, now I feel like people are calming down a bit. They're getting outside more. I think things are getting a little better. And so that's I'm like, Okay, it's kind of safe to come out now and, like, to some degree, and then, like, speak up again. So I've been, you know, back out there the public facing and, you know, doing more podcasts and stuff like that. But so, yeah, I mean, it's real. I mean, I know people say, Oh, Twitter's not real or whatever, but I do think if you're like, a sensitive person and you really care when you see people's like, when you get when you're on the receiving end of like, the volume of like hate that some people get online, like, it does affect you. You know what I mean. And I think some people don't speak up enough about it. But it's true. It's like, it does

Ryan Burgess
actually affect you, absolutely, I mean, and hearing you say about the pandemic piece of it, I was like, Oh yeah, that's where I got my most hate, probably, like, on, on Twitter and stuff like that. In some ways, there was parts of it, like you said, it almost fueled it a little bit more, in a good way, but then it does start to weigh on you, like, it's, like, it's, it's really hard to ignore, too, right? Like, even though you can just be like, Yeah, I don't really give a shit, like, about some person in some far off place, that some random thing, it's easy to try and like, say that it's, doesn't bother you, but it still does like it we're all human, right, like, and it's, it does suck to hear those comments, yeah, for me, I think it's over time. I've got thicker skin over it, but like it still hits. It still does like it sucks. Yeah,

April Wensel
for sure. I think, yeah. I think now too, because Twitter has become less, I don't know, people have left other platforms and stuff. It's not like this. It's, I feel like it doesn't have the same force as it used to. So I'm like, now. I'm like, you know, I don't even get as much traction there. So I'm like, Ah, probably no one even cares anymore. So I feel a little safer about that too.

Ryan Burgess
I like that too, is, yeah, everyone did kind of bounce and, like, I think a lot of people have come back. Or there's like, I'm leaving Twitter, and it's like, everyone's got to come back. I miss a lot of the old things about Twitter, minus all the bad. Like, there was, you know, there is definitely a lot of bad. But like, we were on there for good reason too. Like, there was a lot of amazing people with some great ideas and, like, actually help championing those things. I think more positive than negative, but it's still, it's hard to avoid the negative absolutely,

April Wensel
you know, I'm glad you mentioned that, because that actually ties into, like, my company. So Twitter was, like, instrumental in me, like, launching my company. My first client came in through a Twitter DM. So I definitely missed the old Twitter. I think it was so key to like me, being able to share my voice, because I wasn't like, ex Google or ex Uber or whatever. So I didn't get this immediate like, oh, we should listen to her thing. And so it was only through like, gradually sharing my ideas and like online and amplifying them, like people amplifying them on Twitter, that I even got any traction. So I think it was this, definitely this empowering tool. I think it still is, to some degree, but it's, I think it's much harder to build an audience there now, and especially, you know, maybe on other platforms, it's a little easier. I think people have moved more towards video and stuff. I mean, I hear the kids are using Tiktok these days. I don't know, but, but, yeah, I think in back in the day, it was really useful for me, and so I do miss that time. I guess it's not even Twitter anymore. X, whatever.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I refuse to call it that. I'm like, I know. I don't understand. Like, why? Why change it? You know, it's just, like, it just amplifies how, like, bad, you know, things changed. And it's like, yeah, no, no, thank you. It's still Twitter. I think just recently, they've now gotten rid of the twitter.com domain. It redirects. And I'm like, that was a sad day. I was like, Yeah, because I don't think I've ever hit, you know, x.com like that. That's not something I type in. Still to this day, it's Twitter, and I just wait for the redirect. It's like, that's Same here. Cool. So you mentioned a little bit about focusing on emotional intelligence. And, like, compassionate coding, you know, you did briefly talk about, like, being inspired by noticing that there's this gap in in tech, and you were seeing it just from working in Silicon Valley. But was there a defining moment that really triggered it for you that was like, I need to do this. You know,

April Wensel
it was kind of like the death by 1000 cut sort of thing. Like, in that it like kept, I kept seeing like incidents and things. So it would be like a co worker would have like an outburst or something, and it was just like, like, clearly not managing their emotions, right? Or like I was feeling burnt out, and like I felt like I wasn't allowed to talk about it, because then I would be seen as weak, you know? And so it was like this accumulation of events like that, where I'd see like conflicts between coworkers, like passive aggressive comments, like sometimes in my before, my early workshops company. And even still, now, teams will send me snapshots from, like, screenshots from slack conversations or code reviews where people are very clearly, like, you know, getting into it, and it's like, this weird tension and stuff like that. And I'm like, it doesn't have to be that way, you know. Like, there are healthy ways to manage conflict, you know. And of course, we have these figures in tech, like Linus Torvalds and like others, who kind of became famous for being, like, very abrasive in code reviews, or very, you know. And this is not me personally attacking him, like he's come out and said, like, you know, because he like, cusses at people at his code reviews. And it's very like, like, You're such an idiot. And an idiot, and all these things and these actually come out, I think, encouragingly and saying, like, Hey, I should learn how to manage my emotions better. You know, I have a check. I don't know how that's going for him, but he at least said that at some point. And I was like, Oh, that's great. And, you know, I believe that people can change. So like, when somebody like that comes out and says that I'm like, great, some other people were like, Oh, I don't believe it, or whatever. And I'm like, All right, it's fine to be a little scared. Little skeptical, but I think we should encourage people to, you know, admit areas of growth and like, I believe anyone can learn these skills. That's the other thing. I think sometimes people think you're either a people person and you have these skills or you're not, and you don't, especially in tech people are have that binary thinking of like, oh, it's I'm either a people person or a tech person, and I'm like, actually, no anyone can grow these skills through practice. You just have to care enough to want to practice and to want to learn these skills. Yeah, it's

Ryan Burgess
like, identifying that there's, like, something that does need to change. I'm 100% with you. Change can happen, but someone has to accept, like, hey, you know, I'm a dick in, you know, code reviews. I should probably not do that and actually truly want to change. Like, you know, they can be told that they're rude and in their code reviews and constantly be told that, but until they really accept, like, yeah, that is a problem, and like, I should change that, that that's the part, like, that's the part that really is pivotal in that change, is actually wanting to change and accepting that. Yeah, that's probably not the best behavior. But yeah, I agree, you can learn these things. And I think the reason why I even think of it as learning is because even if you are a people skills person, you are constantly learning right, like, it's like, to me, it's like, how to communicate better, how to like, understand someone's emotions, or how they're even like, especially in Slack and code reviews, and how they're like, tone is coming across, and something written that's really difficult. Like, even when you said, like, the back and forth happening on Slack or a code review, like, right away, I'm like, can you guys just get into a room, right? Like, it's just like, go have an actual human conversation. And it's things like that, where it's like, it's just knowing you learn like from experience and mistakes made that you're like, wow. Like, I just went at it back and forth with April in this code review, and it was really negative. And come to find out that we were both just not trying to be negative to each other, but it came across that way in, you know, a code review. And it's like you just learn with those things over time that you're like, I can communicate differently. Like, let's just get in a room and figure this out together, versus going back and forth. Like, I think those types of things are just examples of you do learn these things over time, and it just comes with practice.

April Wensel
Absolutely, I think, well said. And I think, you know, I don't know, you seem like somebody who probably a lot of this did come naturally, I don't know. Or maybe you just learned very well, but you seem very, like, skilled in these things. But I will say that, like, for some people, it's like, well, I'll give them in the workshop, like, just a list of emotions, or something like that, just to talk about, like, how we're feeling. And they're like, I didn't even realize there were this many emotions, you know. Or they'll be like, what if you feel nothing, you know? And I was like, wow. Like, so I think it's so interesting, because people like you, I mean, you're a personal person. You have a podcast, all this stuff, you've been in leadership. That's like, you clearly are very well established. But like, it's interesting when people are starting where some people are starting from. And it really is that, like, what is an emotion kind of level, and so it's interesting to see people so if people are listening and they're like, I don't know, I don't really know if I could be good at this, it's like, anyone can really and like, you just, you start from somewhere, and then, you know, you grow gradually. You just have to put in the time and the care. I think

Ryan Burgess
some of it, for me comes natural, maybe, like, I've definitely gravitated towards, like, even the challenges of leadership for the people aspect of it. And I think some of it has come naturally, but I think it's also a calm. Instant, like learning for me, like it's like something that I care about and I'm passionate about, so it's like, you know, I'll read books just to get better ideas or approaches, or even talking with other people that I work with, or colleagues or people like yourself. And just like hearing like even being challenged on is like, oh, Ryan, I wouldn't have approached it that way. Here's how that person might have felt, and you're like, oh, wow, I didn't even think of that. And it's like, those moments, I think, are just amazing too, when you kind of have these realizations, and I think that you can't force it either. It just it does happen over time, but it's that willingness to constantly be learning, I think, is really important, and even if it is starting from ground zero, of like, yeah. What are like, how did you think that person felt when you were, like, being rude to them in a code review? And, like, some people, like, I never thought of that. You're like, yeah. I mean, that's where you start. That's

April Wensel
where you start, yeah. So I have, like, a recent example, which is, like a team I'm working with, and somebody was trying to somebody who is kind of very empathetic, was trying to understand, like, the legacy code situation going on at the company, and they asked, like, what are the most senior engineers, like, you know, for a walk through the legacy code. And then they asked, you know, how do you think this is affecting people's morale, like, on your team, and the senior engineers back? And he's like, Huh? I never thought about that. And I was like, it's interesting, because some people just don't think about, like, the impact on the human things. Like, you know, they're so in the code. They're like, Oh, here's the code thing, here's the code. It's like, well, how is this affecting people? And some people just never pause and think about that. But clearly, you know, dealing with legacy code every day, of course, has an impact on morale,

Ryan Burgess
yeah, just in itself. I'm like, I'm tired of writing this code and dealing with that mess. I love that you called it out like that too, because sometimes maybe that gets back to, you know, a point that you made about, like, asking stupid questions. Like someone might have been like, well, that's a stupid question, but it's not like, it's not like, don't get me wrong. It is absolutely not a stupid question. But I think it like to the point where it's like, sometimes just asking that, you know, just literally saying, like, how do you think that made someone feel? Or, you know, how do you think that's working on the overall team dynamics. You can see those wheels turn. Or if someone's like, I had, you know, like I hadn't thought of that. And it's like, if you didn't ask that question, you know that I don't know it might not have they might even not even thought about it absolutely. So I love this, like, you're focusing on this, you're working with teams and companies to just kind of make things a lot more healthier. And I'd be curious, like, what are some, like, success stories or examples where you've gone in there where, like, someone truly didn't even just even think about it, and then, like, what are some things to kind of help them get there, and maybe significant challenges that you've gone through to kind of help teams or companies change the ways that they're operating?

April Wensel
Yeah, you know, I think that at like, the base level, I come in and I'm just like, you know, I'm gonna plant these seeds and see what happens, right? So that's like, I come in sort of with a non detached, like a non attachment, kind of detached kind of feeling of, like, I know that I can't save the world with, like, a workshop and even follow ups and even whatever, right? But I know that I can plant some seeds, and so some of that is, like, shared vocabulary. So again, just kind of introducing people to the idea that we can talk about these things, and we can talk about the human side and share some vulnerability and whatnot, especially, you know, coming in when it's this, you know, I mean, like, there are, there are these, like, hyper masculine environments sometimes where it's like, you know, let's make fun of talking about our feelings. You know, it's like, it seemed. And so even just kind of setting the stage that, hey, like, I'm an engineer, and I talk about my feelings, and then kind of making it safe to do that, I feel like is like the first, like, base level. And then I try to give tools. Because, you know, engineers, we like to follow our algorithms and all that kind of thing. So like, having some like, frameworks that people can use for, like, here's how to give feedback, here's how to, you know, that kind of thing, I think is really helpful. So some of the like feedback that I've gotten that like, has been really encouraging to me, is, like, even just after like, you know, a half day workshop, or whatever someone said because of this exercise we did, like, I now look at this situation that's been bothering me for years, like I understand it now, like I understand what the other person was doing, and I was just like, wow. Like, that's something, you know. And so because that, you know, the accumulation of those kinds of things, those conflicts over years, can, like, really weigh on you. And so I was like, Wow, that's great. I think, though, like, the bigger impact, like, people, it's funny, the things that stand out to me are things that, like, like, yes, people, it affects the bottom line and all of that. But like, what really would it really touches someone on a human level? That's what stands out to me. So, like, someone wrote and said, like, this, this changes how I want to raise my kids, you know, like, I don't, you know, because I in some of my blog posts and some of the stuff I share at companies, I talk about, like, you know, my own, like, kind of childhood, and how it was, like, being smart is the most important thing. And, you know, I was not given, like, equipped with necessarily, these skills, except maybe through Mr Rogers. I feel like watching Mr Rogers, like he definitely, he always encouraged people to talk about their feelings. So somewhere is in there, but I talked about that and how it had impact on me, and how it did kind of make me push myself really hard. And I've always really hard on myself, perfectionists, et cetera. And I think sharing that and then how I've kind of changed, I think so it really hit with some people, and they're like, this changes how. Like, I want to raise my kids. And that, to me, was like, super, you know, successful, but, yeah, when I share the frameworks for like, feedback and stuff, people are like, I'm going to use this in every code review now. And I'm like, Oh, that's great, you know? So I think that's the thing is, like, the light bulbs go off pretty quickly. And people are like, oh, you know, because if you don't know that, there's this whole, like, massive resource, resources and like, books and research about, you know, how to like, be a human, and how to like, you know, share this stuff you just you don't know, and then once you do know, you're like, oh, wow, there's so much to learn here. Like, I'm learning constantly. Like, I'm always trying to read books and learn stuff. I have to give a shout out to your list of management resources on your GitHub, you have this, like, comprehensive, like, huge list. I shared this recently with a team, because I was like, start here, like, and I think that's amazing. And so I think, you know, exposing people that kind of thing, I think just is so eye opening. And I think once people to just understand that it is a skill you can learn. It's not like, oh, I have it, or I don't. I think that makes a big impact too. So, yeah, those are the you know. And I will say, like, a lot of times someone on the team has advocated to bring me in, because they already kind of get this stuff, and they're, like, feeling really lonely. And so I think the other thing that always warms my heart is when afterwards, that person says, like, Thank you for like, because when you're in a company, it's so much harder to make change because there's, like, all the politics and everything, I can come in and I can say, hey, the Emperor's not wearing any clothes. Let's fix this. Like I can call I can speak the hard truths, and I get to leave so I don't, you know, I don't have to suffer the political consequences. That means a lot to me too, because it's like I could say the things that they wish they could say, but like, they don't feel like they can. And maybe now, going forward, they do feel like they can, like, calling out the interpersonal stuff, like sharing how they're, you know, feeling and, you know. And again, I think it's worth because some people are probably like, okay, but it's like, this actually does affect the bottom line. So if you think about it, it's hard to be productive when you're, like, distracted by all of the like, emotional stuff going on in your life, you know, and when people at work, or, like, when you feel uncomfortable at work because of how people are treating you and and they don't know, and all of that, like, you're not going to be productive. So like, this does all ultimately impact the bottom line, too. And it's worth calling that out, although I hate that. We have to, right? You wish people would just care about people, to care about people. But, you know, we do work for, you know, for profit. Businesses trying to, you know, make a, you know, bring in profits. So it's worth calling that out as well.

Ryan Burgess
No, it's true. I agree with you. It's like, I wish that was just like, bare, bare minimum. You have to care about your coworkers and treat everyone with respect. But you know, that's not the case, and so you're right. Like, call it out where it is, and it's like helping companies understand that this does actually help. The bottom line, I feel like it's hard to measure, like I do actually. I mean, there's ways in which, like, if you start to make, you know, broad changes across a company, you know, doing better with like inclusion and just like helping people feel welcome at their job, they are fundamentally going to be happier, but that happens over time. And so there are ways that companies can look at like, for me, I would think about like retention and like overall, even maybe, like, are you shipping faster or, you know, I don't want to call it faster, but like, more thoughtfully, like, it's because I'm like, faster doesn't necessarily mean good. But yeah, I think a lot of that is like helping companies understand that. And as a leader, I can speak to this very well, where it's like, I'm a big believer in having an inclusive environment for my team. I think it just helps bring people together from different backgrounds or experiences that end up helping whatever we're building. Like, it's like, funny, like, some of the things where someone's experience in life, how they grew up, changes how they like, show up in their job for the better or worse, sometimes. But like, when I think about it as bringing some of those differences to the team can just like, help us think more strategically about the products that we're building, but then also the health of the team. Like, if they're happier, they're going to be, they're going to do their best work, right? Like, they're, they're they're really engaged. They're thinking about that. They're not worried about. Like, oh, so And so John on the team, just, he's going to be so rude to me in my code review. I don't even want to, like, I'm scared to, you know, share my code, like, all those things prevent us from doing excellent work, and so all those things add up to me is like, companies should be investing in it more, and that it will help it, but it's hard for people to see that. And like, I've unfortunately managed toxic teams, it's exhausting, like, it's absolutely and it's so hard to change. And it's like that to me is like, you start to see that when you have a very healthy team and an unhealthy team, it's like, night and day, like, huge difference. So I think I can't stress this enough to your point of like, this is important, yeah,

April Wensel
absolutely, I'm with you on that, and it is hard to measure. You know what I mean? And like, I found that I. As well. Like, that's why, like, it's interesting. Like, with my business, I've never done kind of a hard sell to companies because, like, one, I just don't like the way that feels. But also because, like, I'm not trying to, like, I don't know, be like, here are the data points, whatever, because I just feel like that's counter to kind of how I do things. But I will say, I will give a shout out to Dr Kat Hicks at the Pluralsight developer Success Lab. Her team has done, like, some great work on, like finding, like gathering the data, doing the research to show how what makes developers thrive. So she has this like, developer thriving framework. And, you know, it's things like agency, a feeling of belonging, like all these very like human centered things, and showing, like, how she like, what she measures like in terms of, you know, the code, in terms of company, etc, like to show, like, how beneficial they are. And so I think there are some people like doing that work. And so I'm like, that's great, because that, like that helps make the case and whatnot. And I sometimes do surveys for like, the teams that I do, like before and after kind of things like that, to check in. But I do think it's one of those things where, yeah, we're putting a number on something, but is, it doesn't make a lot of sense, you know what I mean, and so, like, that's why I'm like, you know, we'll see. But it is hard to measure the things. I mean, you've probably seen all the like, the debates over developer productivity and measuring that, you know, and all of that. So we definitely don't have figured out, even as an industry, like, how to measure effectiveness, because so much of what we do is so intangible. And I think I tell my team, like, Yeah, going for a walk around the block is part of your work. You know what? I mean? It's like, you know, that's, that's work, and it's, you're not going to measure that, you know? I mean, somebody who, like, brings in treats for the team, like, and makes everybody happy. Like, that's part, you know, that's cool, too. And like, that's not going to show up on a, you know, metrics dashboard, and so I think a lot of the things we do to support our team, like, you're not going to be able to measure the impact directly, but you can definitely feel it. That's the thing is, you can definitely feel it like, I've also been involved. I've actually done workshops with, like, teams that just needed a little tweaking and just needed a little, like, speaking help, speaking up. And then I've worked with some teams that were, like, falling apart, you know. And I'm trying to, like, Help, at least, kind of, like ease that a bit, and it's just night and day difference, you

Ryan Burgess
know. Oh, I love that, too. And you're right, it's as hard to measure. But like you said, I'm so glad you brought up the developer productivity thing, because I feel, I mean, one of my last roles at Netflix was leading a developer productivity team, and it was like, that was always something like, I feel like they were trying to, not not the team, but like, just as an org or company, they were trying to, like, over measure things that you're like, well, that doesn't you, if you squint at it, you're like, Yeah, I kind of see that we're doing better in that war, but it's just such a squishy metric that it's really tough. It's like, so you you know, it's like, saying, like, let's measure the lines of code written. I'm like, well, that's not good. Because, like, we should actually, like, let's not do that. Or, you know, I've seen companies do like, the, you know, number of commits that an engineer has made. I'm like, well, that actually, I can game the shit out of that. Like, I don't just, it's really easy. And also that's not meaningful. It doesn't doesn't tell you anything. So I think it's like, really trying to understand, like, why is it important? You know? Like, let's start there. Like, why is this important? Why? You know, why do we want to have a healthy team? Let's start there, and then, like, that's our goal. Have a healthy team. And then, yeah, use qualitative metrics, like the surveys, and just like, say that this is important to us. How are we gonna just check in on it, but it's not like a bottom line. It's hard to necessarily measure. Maybe changing gears too. I wanna go back to something you had said that, like in the tech industry, the like, emotional intelligence skills have been maybe lacking a bit. And I'm curious to know, like, what are some of those major things that you see are lacking.

April Wensel
Yeah, I think, you know, it starts from, I think, a self awareness, so like, knowing even how we're feeling and how it's impacting our work, and that's important, because even just knowing when you need to take a break and when you need, like, when you are, like, tending towards burnout, some people don't know until they're fully burnt out. And I think the more you're able to check in with yourself and understand, like, how you're doing along the way. I think also like empathy for others. I think that to some people comes naturally, and I think to a lot of people in tech, it does not. And so it is something you can learn, thankfully. And so just being able to put yourself in somebody else's position and think about like, how you're impacting them, and how your words are affecting them, and looking, learning, like, how to look for signs and how the person communicates and their tone and whatnot, to figure out how, like to take a guess, at least at how they're feeling, and just knowing I think about different personality types like that was, you know, like, it's funny, because there are clearly different personality types, but I'm not a fan of, like, any of the frameworks for like identifying them, because I feel like they try to put people into boxes. And it just, I feel like, depending on how I'm feeling that day, I end up with a different personality result. So I don't have much faith in, like, labeling people in that way. However, I think just knowing that some, like, in the in some of the exercises I do with teams, it's like how people relate to conflict, and you'll see people. On opposite extremes, right? Where some people like, love getting into it, and they love debate and they love arguing, and then you have the people who like, very conflict avoidant and don't even want to, like, ruffle any feathers, and so they'll, you know, just stay quiet even when they're not happy about something. And I think just letting people understand that there are these, like, different ways of looking at things helps bridge that empathy gap, so that people can see, like, oh, like, both of these approaches are okay. It's not that, like one person's weak and the other person's angry all the time. It's like, no, they're they both have their strengths that that type. And I think that that's something that, again, given our binary thinking in tech, I think is often like, not there and, and, of course, empathy for our, you know, customers are users, right? Like this has been an issue in the industry for a long time. And, you know, thankfully, with the UX movement and everything, I think we've, like, moved more towards, you know, caring and about the users. At least, we have people on the team that care about users more so. But still, I think developers, you know, I show this slide in my talk sometimes about, like, commit messages, where it's like, fixing this for the stupid user, or, yeah, doing this for the stupid user. Like, the way we I mean, I remember in tech, like, when I was, like, working at these startups, a lot of times, the way we talk about users was very, kind of, like, condescending and like thinking like, we're smarter than them, because we're, you know, and it's kind of, you know, when you tell someone you're an engineer, like, I, you know, we'll tell somebody, you know, when I'm traveling and, you know, I'm getting a ride somewhere and, like, an Uber or whatever, a taxi, and I tell them, Oh, I'm an software engineer, like, Oh, you must be really smart. And I try to say, well, maybe. But like, I think that this weird, like, putting engineers on a pedestal is not helping us either. And so I think part of like, you know, empathy is understanding like that. There's different types of intelligence, there's different types of skills, and they're all valuable, and that they all help, you know, make the world go round, etc. And so I think that that's part of it too. Is this helping engineers kind of take away some of those layers of, like, intellectual arrogance and whatnot. Because, you know, it just recognize and have empathy for people that have different skill sets, including the soft stuff, because that's valuable for teams, too. And so because, you know, look at Tech interviews, right, like job interviews, which I'm sure a lot of people are dealing with right now, just given the state of our industry, they're still like, terrible and like, they make you feel, I mean, I can't tell you, early on in my career, how many times I literally cried after job interviews. I'm not, I'm just being real here. I know it was like, because I thought, oh, like, you know, I did well in school, I'll be too great at these interviews. And it was just like, they would just like, eviscerate me. And I was just like, Oh, I'd feel so bad because they're very adversarial. I feel like. So I think even just changing job interviews to like be, you know, to have more empathy and to try to give people an opportunity to share their strengths, versus trying to expose their weaknesses. You know, this is something I've been passionate about a long time. But I think, if anything, because the industry has kind of moved more towards like, the employers have more power. I think at the moment, just given the state the industry, I think, if anything, interviews have gotten like, worse, and some have gotten better. I think because all these people are talking about this, and people are standing their ground, people that do have power, that are more senior, like, I'm not going to do your little take home exercise that takes forever. Sorry, no. And I think that's one thing that people who are more advanced in the industry can do, is kind of put their foot down and be like, No, I'm not going to, like, jump through your hoops, because, you know, it's unreasonable, because a lot of times it is, oh,

Ryan Burgess
I mean, there's been coding exercises, like you said, like a take home exercise. They're like, can you spend eight hours on that? And that, to me, is like, well, that's a full day's work. So when, when is someone doing that? Okay, well, they've got the weekend. Okay. Well, that they need that time to, you know, to rest or do whatever they want in life, and that's a big ask. Or, you know, people have a lot of other things that are going on in their life that that is not their primary thing. It is a good way to get a sense of how someone codes and, you know, what they build. But I think there's other ways in which you can get at that to make their life a little bit easier. I always think about it too. From my perspective as a leader, having to interview people, it's still broken. I don't think I do it better than others, but it's one thing I've tried to reframe my thinking too, is like, how do I make sure that this person shows up successfully for like, their best, they're able to show me their best. I'd rather look at it that way, like you said, than trip someone up. It's more like, I want them to be successful. I can still assess them if you know they don't do that well compared to someone else. It's like, well, their best just maybe wasn't as great. But ultimately, I want every candidate to be able to show their best. And so there's ways in which I think you can help someone prepare them. Like, yes, don't just sit there and be like, I need to judge them. And like, really, you know, put them in their spot. But it's even like, helping them prepare for, like, what to expect for the interview. Like, sometimes that can just be enough, and it's surprising. Like, when you start to share some of those things, like, oh, here you're gonna talk to me. X, this person, you're gonna talk to this person, and, you know, they're gonna cover these types of things, you'll want to think about that. Some people are like, Why are you telling me all this? And it's like, because it's like, that's what's gonna happen, you know. And people still sometimes don't show up well, and it's like, but you know, you're at least given the information needed. We're not trying to trip you up. Yeah,

April Wensel
I think that's great, and that's a very empathetic way to interview it. And again, I think that's fantastic. And I think, you know, like, and. Example that comes to mind is sometimes I'll have an interviewer. I've seen interviewers where they'll be really excited to do some puzzle with during the interview, and they're like, Oh, this is gonna be a fun puzzle or whatever. And it's like, for some people, yeah, it is fun to work through some obscure kind of like, puzzle or whatnot. But also for some people, during an interview, like, when they're on the trying to, you know, it's not, they're not going to relax enough to have their creative mind necessarily working at full capacity. Like, I love doing puzzles myself, but when I'm under pressure and like, this is determining whether or not I can pay my bills or whatever. When you're in that survival mode, I'm sorry, you're not going to be like, Oh, this is a fun puzzle. You're going to be like, okay, like, I need to get this job. I'm very stressed. I'm in survival, you know, fight or flight mode, you know, all of that. And so I think that, again, that's where empathy comes in. Of like, hey, yeah, we're not just, like, hanging out, you know, on a Saturday, like, casually, like, you know, doing a board game. It's like, No, we're like, in this very someone's in this interviewee is in this very high stress situation. And I think just being sensitive to that, you know, which it sounds like you are, but a lot of people not, not quite yet, I

Ryan Burgess
don't think, like, even as I say that I'm like, I'm still making mistakes, right? Like, there's still things that you're like, Oh, I wish I would have known that or taken the different approach there. I think that's the thing. Is, you're constantly kind of just like, How can I do better? Or how can my team interview better? And I think those are important things to just be talking about too. I think that that's, that's a big win. But yeah, I think anytime my worst code is when I've, like, coded on a whiteboard in front of someone, it's like, you know, and not even for like, in front of someone, I'm like, I can do that on my job, like, you know, where there's like, hey, let's, you know, work together on this collaboratively. But it's like, when I'm on an interview, it's like, what was I thinking? It's like, it's not my worst. Yeah,

April Wensel
absolutely same. I mean, yeah, I've drawn I remember, like, in some of my early interviews, like, I would just draw blank sometimes, like, like, because, you know, a lot of times when you're working at a job, you're you're editing an existing file, or you're like, you know, you have this code base and you're adding something new, but you have some things to, like, start with. You have some starter stuff or whatever. But when you have this, like, blank page, and you haven't done that in a long time, and you're out of practice with it, it's like, Wait, how do I initialize this again? Like, how do i What's that? What's the setup here? And I remember it when I, like, drew a blanket. I was like, Oh, my God, they're gonna think I can't code, but I absolutely can, but it's gonna mean, but under those high stress situations, it's like, yeah, yeah, no, I've

Ryan Burgess
totally been there too. And it's like, it's always, yeah, it just it feels, it just doesn't feel great at all. No, you know, we've talked bit about the like, what some of the things are lacking in the industry. I'd be curious too, is like, especially, like you talked about, like, almost people fighting some of these things. I'm sure you're met with, like, a lot of misconceptions around the quote, unquote, soft skills. And I'm curious to just hear your experience with that. Like, what are some of the biggest misconceptions that you come across?

April Wensel
I think the biggest one, which we've touched on a bit, is either, like, you have it or you don't. And so I think especially this comes into play, like some people, when we're talking about, like, neuro divergence and things, they're thinking, Well, some people are just not good at this. And it's like, it's wrong for you to expect them to be empathetic, because, you know, they just think differently. And so that's one that I like to, like, say, again, anyone can learn these skills. People are starting from different levels. Again, given, you know, different personality types, given different ways of thinking. And that's fine. And that's the thing is, you know, we can have empathy too, for wherever people are in their journey, in their emotional intelligence journey. These are skills. So that's like, one is just that you can learn them, you can practice. So that's like, a big one. And again, there is research to support this, like out there already in terms of, you can, you know, grow like people can become more empathetic over time and get better at, like, putting themselves in other people's shoes, and like, that ability to guess what people are feeling and to pick up on those signs and stuff. So that is something you can change. I think that's one another one that I ran into yet again recently, I was talking with somebody, I was sharing how I just shared very directly how the way they were communicating I didn't feel empathy in it. And, like I said, I just didn't. And, and they're like, Well, I'm just a logical person. And I was like, okay, so you know what I mean, one, it's like, these are not, it's not an either or thing. Like, being emotionally intelligent is not illogical, right? It's like it. So it kind of like it, like, triggered me a bit. I mean, not really. But I was just like, seriously, like, Are you implying that I'm not? You know, I got a little I had my own kind of emotional response to it, because I was like, what's the implication here that like, so I was trying to explain that it's not you can be both empathetic and logical and rational and all of that, like these work together. They're not, like, opposed. And so think that's another big misconception. I also think that just some people think that, because I especially if they're not in leadership, they think that they can just focus on the code, and so they shouldn't have to care about, like, the people stuff and like, that's, you know, and I think that that's another misconception, because it's like, well, like, why are you writing code? It's so that someone, some human, will eventually use it right, whatever you're writing, even if it is some very deep, low level stuff. Although, since this is front end engineering, most people listening will probably be on board the front end, which is very much affecting people directly. And so I think there's that. And then I think also you're working with people like, we're, we're so past this, like, coding alone in a basement world of software engineering, which maybe it was the case like, long, long ago, but like, definitely is not now. And so you have to collaborate with people, whether they're actual, like co workers, or whether it's, you know, even. Open source projects that you're using, and you're having to, like, interact with that, whatever it may be, I think that you're dealing with humans, and so we can't, even if we are just an engineer and we're not trying to, like, be a leader, you do still have to care about humans. You know, it's still including yourself, right? Because that's the other thing is, burnout is huge problem, even more. So I think since the pandemic and everything, I think people have been working themselves really hard. And the other piece of this is like caring about yourself, you know. And I think that's the I guess, another misconception is it's like, well, if I spend so much time caring about other people and trying to be compassionate, like I'm going to burn out more. And so I think one thing that's missed is like, no part of compassion is self compassion. It's like knowing when you need to step back, knowing when you need to take care of yourself, like I had to do this, as I mentioned earlier, and so, and you'd have to be okay with that, and sometimes that will disappoint people, and sometimes, you know, people will want more of you, and especially when you're a leader, you know, like, people are going to ask for more and need more, and you want to show up, but also you're not going to be able to help anyone if you don't take care of yourself. So I think that's the other piece. I also think this idea, sorry, there's so many misconceptions. So I could like another this is good. So another one is that compassion is like weak, like, you know, to being like, you're giving into people and you're being weak. And so something that's like, I've been trying to emphasize lately is that compassion can be this very like, fierce, assertive thing as well. So I think it is Kristin Neff, who wrote the book self compassion, but she wrote another book about, like, fierce self compassion and fierce compassion. And it's and other people talk about it too, but it's this idea that there's the yin and yang of compassion. And so like, the Yin side is the one we think of the softer side of like, being gentle, which is very important as well. But also there's this Yang side that's like, speaking up. And so I think sometimes when we see people speaking up and challenging the status quo, and you know, that sort of thing, that's actually compassionate too. And so it actually takes a lot of strength to be compassionate. And so I think that's the other misconception, is that it's like this weakness. It's like, no, sometimes you're standing up for someone, standing up for yourself, asserting yourself, speaking up for your team. Like, I think one thing that engineers in particular, sometimes need to do is push back on the business side and be like, actually, no, like, this is like, we're unable to do this. Like, given these constraints, like, we can do it, but we'll need to change this. You know, like, having that the trade off conversation, I think, can be an uncomfortable one, but it's one where, if you're if you approach it with like, fierce compassion for everybody involved, you can come to, you know, an agreement that's like, workable for everybody involved. And so I think that that's another one that, like, it's compassion is actually strong. It's not a weak kind of soft, only soft thing. I'm

Ryan Burgess
not surprised to hear that one as a misconception. I'm like, Yes, as you're saying all those things. I'm like, yes, I've totally seen that happen time and time again. But like, Yeah, I think you highlighted it well how important it is, like, and just, you know, how effective you can be with having these skill sets too, and it's, it's beneficial to you, the team, the company, all the, all the things I love too, that you'd said about the self care and like, you know, being able to know when you're burning out burnout is huge, and it is a really, really tough thing for people to deal with. I get the impression for you that you're you. This is a skill set you're good at, and maybe it's something that you've had to work on, but you balance your life out well, like you've got, like, between coding, speaking, writing, running, marathons, you know, just everything that you do. Like, how do you balance your life? I'm not great at this. Like, I feel like I'm my problem is, is probably that I'm not great at setting boundaries, and I get the sense that you're probably better at this. So I'm curious, like, how do you balance your life so well, well,

April Wensel
I don't know. I mean, this is again, it's a work in progress. I won't say I'm perfect on this either, but I do think I have gotten better at it over time. I definitely, early on in my career, gave too much to whatever company I was at. I just did. I was an overachiever. And so I was like, I will work weekends, and I will be the last one to leave the office, and I will do that. And I think that's rewarded in the industry. And so we're kind of pressured to do that, you know, it's like, if you're the one who is fixing bugs at like, 2am it's like, oh, April's like, you know, we're so happy to have April on the team. And so it's like, okay, I guess I'm gonna have to keep doing that. And so I think it was kind of going through my own burnout and disillusionment. I realized that, like, I wasn't happy. You know what I mean? Like, I was making a lot of money, right in these jobs and whatever. And in theory, people would think, Oh, she hasn't made or whatever. But I was, like, kind of lonely and like, I wasn't really, like, investing in my social life. And I was like, unhappy, and my health was not good. I wasn't eating healthy. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't exercising, like, I came into running later, well, later in life, like, kind of like, in my, like, late 20s or whatever. So kind of later, it was, like, so good for my mental health, running. And so I think, you know, stepping back and evaluating. And so after having gone through my own burnout, I was like, okay, like, I need to decide what my core values are, like, what really matters to me in life, and make sure that the choices I'm making are aligned with that. And so I think that's like a good starting point for people, is just to decide, like, what, what? What what, what do I really care about? And so I decided that, like, getting the approval of whatever boss I had at the time actually, like, is not like, top priority for me. I mean, yes, of course, doing a good job. I want to feel pride in my work, and I want to help people. But, you know, there's that classic thing, if they're not going to, you know, put on your tombstone like you'd ever was last one to leave the office, like, you know. Or at, you know, your funeral, like, people, I mean, April was such a good hard worker. It's like, really, is that what matters? And so when you put it in those, you know, terms, which I think the pandemic helped people see that, because it was such an intense time, people, like, really stepped back and valid. Like, what do I really care about? And so, but not everyone had the chance. Some people kind of stayed doing what they were doing. I mean, I've changed even more so since the pandemic. Like, I think even with my own business, I was pushing a little hard, like I was kind of getting back into that, like doing too much, like taking on too much kind of thing. And I had to step back too and reassess and be like, alright, like, you know, I have to sleep too, and to, you know, still get out and see my sunsets. As you know, on Twitter, I'm always posting those, like, that's, that's just so key to me is getting out in nature and stuff. So I think that, yeah, it's just assessing your values and then being willing again, to be to sit with the discomfort that sometimes comes from saying no to people, and you know what I mean, and maybe offering to help them in other ways, but sometimes again, in order to keep going, you have to disappoint some people along the way, and that's just part of

Ryan Burgess
it. I love all those things you just said. I feel like I know all these things April, like it's not brand new information, but I'm like, Yes, like I need to practice those things more, like setting the boundaries, or like being uncomfortable with that, and like getting good at being uncomfortable and just like, or not getting good at it, but just learning that, yes, it couldn't be a comfortable but it's okay is huge. And then I think there's a couple things there that you said that I love, like setting the goals, or really understanding, like, what is important to you in life is so important. I feel like having kids definitely was a forcing factor for me. It just quickly, like, obviously, that's a really important thing, and it just kind of forces you to that mindset. And I'm so thankful for that that I almost wish I just had that without having a forcing factor, right? Like, I should have realized this many years ago before kids, but I think it is definitely our good reminder of, like, yeah, what's important to you? And like, is it, you know, impressing your co workers? Like, yeah, that might be important. You want to be a good teammate. But like, is it your core value? Is it the most important thing, or to burn yourself out, probably not. It's it's like, ultimately, it's probably what's what makes you happy. And so I love that thinking. And then what I heard you almost say too, is like you are, you've gotten better at it, but then you you still hit some burnout at some point. So I think that what I heard from you there was that it's like, even when you master some of these skills, it's something that you're constantly learning and having to reassess too, right? Like, you probably overworked in some area because you were just excited to kind of keep going, and then it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, I need to take a step back. I'm not seeing that sunset anymore. I've been, like, missing it every night the last, like, two weeks. Like, I should probably change that

April Wensel
absolutely. Yeah, and I love what you said too, because we can know these things intellectually, but then, like, we still don't do them, like we don't put them into practice. And so it is. It's a constant, like, habit building, kind of, like reassessing, like it's a journey, and I think we're all on it. I go ups and downs on it, you know what I mean? And so I feel like I'm recovering a bit. I had, I definitely dipped during the pandemic. I just it was a hard time for me. As you know, I love doing in person stuff. There wasn't that going on. It was like it was a lonely, sad time, but we're on the up now. So I'm like, you know, giving back up, and so it's a journey, and we're all, you know, doing our best along the way, and compassion comes in handy. Because, you know, life's hard, compassion helps with

Ryan Burgess
that awesome well, I know we're coming up on the hour. I'm curious too. Is like, what's one piece of advice that you would leave our listeners with, if they were just anything that you would have for our listeners,

April Wensel
I would say, you know, whatever, like, you've been being hard on yourself about because we all are, like, you know, give yourself a little bit of a break. And that doesn't mean you're letting yourself off the hook, but it means recognizing that, like we all are dealing with challenges, and I would say that applies to to anyone in your life that's like, upsetting or difficult to deal with, is think about the hard stuff they're going through too. Like, that's the essence of compassion, is recognizing that we and other people are always going through something hard, and so we should be, like, a little more gentle with ourselves and other people.

Ryan Burgess
Well, Said, I love that. Thank you so much, April, this is like, amazing conversation. I feel like I could keep talking with you. It's been so such a great topic to discuss. And thank you so much for the vulnerability too. I think that's a big skill too, that I constantly notice is like, it's not easy for people to do, but you've shared a lot of things of your personal experience and just like how you felt. And I love that. I appreciate that so much. So thank you so much for joining us and sharing so many great insights. Where can people get in touch with you if they want to learn more, if they want to hire you at their company, how can they find you Sure? So

April Wensel
best place is probably my website. Is a starting place, which is compassionatecoding.com. I have a newsletter there that I send semi regularly, maybe every, every few weeks or so. I get it out, and it's, you know, it's a free newsletter. It's not one of these paid ones. And I try to put some thoughts there. I am on Twitter, still not going to call it x at April Wensel, so you can find me there too. Yeah, that's really the best ways.

Ryan Burgess
Awesome. Well, thank you all for listening to this episode. You can find us on Twitter, yes, Twitter at frontend. HH, and on YouTube at frontend. HH, yeah, find us really. We're. Wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening. Bye.