Toast to a new year

Ryan Burgess
Welcome to Episode 48 of the front end happier podcast. It's been a great year and we continue to enjoy putting together new episodes. Thank you to everyone who continues to listen to this show. This will be our last episode of 2017 and will start back up in January. Since it's the end of the year, we thought why not do a bit of reflection of 2017 and talk about things that we're excited for in 2018? Let's go around the table and give brief introductions of today's panelists. Jamie started off

Jem Young
Jem Young Senior Software Engineer at

Brian Holt
Netflix. I'm Brian Holt and starting in 2018. I will be a senior Cloud Developer Advocate for Microsoft.

Augustus Yuan
Oh really? Yeah. Wow.

Brian Holt
That's news.

Ryan Burgess
Congrats. This is the first we're hearing about this. I love it. Okay, dude, this is this is not good news.

Brian Holt
I know. Well, you're breaking this

Ryan Burgess
episode.

Derrick Showers
So let me get this straight. You spent the first 50 episodes bashing Microsoft and

Brian Holt
I don't have fastening as now. I don't have

Augustus Yuan
to bring you on to here. We need

Derrick Showers
to turn

Brian Holt
on Microsoft.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, as a as a parting gift for Brian make all the cuts of everything he's ever said.

Jem Young
A few. Derek's like Yeah.

Brian Holt
I wouldn't be like employed at Microsoft. Like two days.

Ryan Burgess
They'll be like that podcast. You were on what podcast? Right. I think that's another Ryan hole. It's

Brian Holt
a very common name. All right. Well, that's

Ryan Burgess
amazing news. Congrats, Brian. Thank you. And Derek.

Derrick Showers
Well, in 2018, I'll still be a senior software engineer at cool.

Ryan Burgess
But you'll still be employed by Microsoft. Yeah.

Augustus Yuan
Oh, my God says is still a front end engineer at Evernote.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm still a software engineering manager at Netflix. In each episode of the front end, Happy Hour podcast. We'd like to choose a keyword if it's mentioned at all in the podcast, we will all take a drink. What did we decided today's keyword

Brian Holt
is Microsoft trend

Ryan Burgess
trends. Stop being a Microsoft advocate. Okay, sorry. Wrong job. Alright, so if anyone in the podcast says the word trend, we will all take a drink. All right. Well, let's get started. I'm interested to hear what are some of the highlights for each of you that you'd like to share that happened in 2017? Like, seriously, nothing good happened?

Augustus Yuan
Nope, down here. Alright, let

Ryan Burgess
me start off with one of them being Stacy London joined our podcast. does a pretty good win.

Jem Young
Oh, Vue. JS. I'm pretty sure we call this in 2016. We're like React will be around forever. Angular won't be around forever. There'll be another one. Everybody's like, no, yeah, there's no room. To me like Vue. JS is like creeping up. They're

Brian Holt
definitely hit their hockey stick growth. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
yeah, we saw it happening in 2016. But not not the growth that it had over 2017

Jem Young
highlights. We made a lot of new friends, especially with the podcast. I don't want to name some because I'll forget others, and then they'll be sliding. But you know who you are out there. Like we talk regularly. I mean, I made a lot of friends. This podcast, absolutely. Traveling around just smart people with different ways of thinking about problems, which is awesome.

Ryan Burgess
Absolutely. Brian got his first tattoo. Oh, yeah. And second. Yeah. And second, all in one year. Yeah. Way to go. Yeah. Yes. Six became a lot more supported in browsers. He is Yes. 2015. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I should call it Yes. 2015 Thanks, Brian. I became a dad. Oh, yeah. That's pretty trippy.

Brian Holt
I give it like a like a four out of 10. Yeah.

Augustus Yuan
Trend. Cheers. Cheers.

Ryan Burgess
I feel like VR is becoming more adopted. VRN AR the browsers like Google and Firefox have adopted more or built more API's into the browser for VR, which has been really cool to see.

Brian Holt
Definitely. Yeah.

Ryan Burgess
Pretty so. Is mindblowingly fast. That's a great one. I think Jem, you've picked it as a pic. I've seen like Brian talked about it on Twitter. It's an awesome browser.

Augustus Yuan
React fiber was Yeah, fiber is a good one. Really awesome. Actually, like one thing that I thought was really awesome is how Stanford is trying out JavaScript as a way to teach people in computer science like they had like their first class in in 2017 to like Teach CSE fundamentals. I thought that was like really awesome. I

Ryan Burgess
mean, JavaScript everywhere. I

Augustus Yuan
know,

Brian Holt
no things

Jem Young
I'm gonna say and this one's more controversial. There's quite a few boot camps that closed down, which I'm actually okay with. I had like a very strong opinion about boot camps and their value that they're providing to some people. And I think a lot of them popped up out of nowhere with no like fundamentals and there's like, let's make money. And a lot of them closed down. They weren't they didn't have good fundamentals, which I think is better for the community in general.

Derrick Showers
Yeah, I think I mean, I think you probably agree, I think there's definitely value I mean, my wife, who's also on the podcast, climatized, she went to one and like, it's completely changed her, like life. I mean, yeah, no, and so that's a success story. But I think I agree, it's definitely one of those things that became a trend. Tears is, even during her experience, which is one of the ones that close actually, you know, I could see that they were, I don't know, this is promising a lot of things that are really hold are hard to like to to, it's almost like promising a get rich, quick scheme, you know. And I think like, if it wasn't for that, and it was just, hey, here's a step in the right direction to get you motivated, which is what Sarah would want to do for Sarah, then, you know, but not everyone's always in the same financial position to do so. You know, you can't like some people can't take three months, and then continue to take time off until they are while they keep but it's

Ryan Burgess
kind of dirty, too. They're like, come do this for three months, and then you'll make 150k a year. And I feel like that's a lot of the ones that that's how they're selling people. I

Brian Holt
feel like it's okay, so from, I've spoken to the boot camps, I know a bunch of people who run the boot camps. I wouldn't frame them as dishonest, I would frame them as optimistic. And people like Sarah, people like Pat Higgins, people like Nico Huebner, like these people that I know, get into these boot camps and work their fuckin asses off, right. And then they get awesome jobs. And they're just, they're hopeful that that by working their asses off, they'll get awesome jobs. And like, by working their asses off, they get jobs. What is the unfortunate byproduct of this is that they also in this wide net that they cast catch people that just want to get rich quick scheme, like just much like Derrick was alluding to. And it's not that it's it is a hard field, it's getting harder to get into, he was much easier than when we all were getting into it. And over time, it probably will just get harder to get into. So it's not get rich,

Derrick Showers
quick. One thing not to harp on this this topic, but it's interesting. One thing that hopefully trend cultural, it's called

Ryan Burgess
tears. I don't really

Derrick Showers
have any, like, facts on whether or not this happened. But I can only hope that it did is that encourage one thing I think that the bootcamps did well is delivered on like fresh content and people from like the the industry that were like recently in the industry. And like I think a lot of times, that's not always true with like, traditional college education. So hopefully that this is like kind of lit a fire and

Ryan Burgess
builds a better trend.

Jem Young
Yeah. Yeah, I'm not knocking boot camps. But I my impression was probably the same as yours run. A lot of them were like, guaranteed to make this amount when it maybe that's true. But like, I don't think that should be the selling point is to be like change the way you think about problems, like learn how to solve problems, find your passion. And if you're passionate, you're going to be good at it.

Ryan Burgess
When I think that like the exactly to Brian's point is there's the people who work their asses off and do a really great job. And that's they're the ones that succeed, and probably do go on to make that it's just, I think the selling point that they say is that you do this and you'll be good. almost guaranteed. Maybe they don't say that. But it's like alluding to that. Yeah.

Brian Holt
It's been a wonderful way to watch. Some people especially some people have like underrepresented minorities to like pull themselves out of like poverty. And so that like that's been really awesome to watch, but it still requires working your ass off, for sure.

Ryan Burgess
So another thing I'd be interested in is as we look back on 2017, we talked about the podcasts and like how we've met great people. What's your favorite episode that we've done in 2017?

Brian Holt
It's like my children. How do I choose? Okay, I'll choose.

Augustus Yuan
I'll start. My favorite episode was the burnout episode. Like I thought that was like a very humanizing episode, in the sense that like, it's definitely like a real problem that I've experienced. And I've seen people experience even though they don't like, I feel like some people don't even know that they're experiencing it like they're getting burnt out. It's like, it's just like, I would like to see us do more of those kinds of episodes.

Brian Holt
Yeah, no, I thought that was a really great episode. I was just in Tennessee for November. And I met with the guy that runs vets who code drum Hardaway super solid upstanding guy. And he's a huge fan of the podcast listens to all the time and he told me that like it was really great, but something that he had for criticism for us is that A lot of our stories aren't repeatable, right? Like, we told our stories like how we got burned out how we got into the industry. And people that were in his coding boot camp sort of thing, which is what vet Tuko does that kind of offers. That's a way to to get into coding after after exiting the military, that a lot of our stories are unapproachable and that like, you can't you can't follow my story, right? Like I had a fucking crazy story. No, no right person should follow what I did, because it shouldn't have worked. And it's not a repeatable in that it's not, it's not. So anyway, like, I just wanted to like call that I thought it was super important that would drum pointed out to it's really great.

Jem Young
It's actually a good place to call out. One of our friends podcasts who just started Kyle Shelvin. He has a podcast called second career devs. And it's all about people who made the switch from their original career into being a dev, which is

Ryan Burgess
such a great idea because so much more of it happening. I mean, he's one that has done that

Brian Holt
himself fucking pastor. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, he's created this podcast. Like, I think he's done a couple episodes now. Or just one. Definitely. He has plans for all these interviews with people who've kind of gone through that transition, which any other favorites? I like

Jem Young
the Web Components episode because the only episode of Front have happened or two years running that does not have Ryan Burgess.

Brian Holt
Was that antastic? Fantastic. Trey was super cool.

Ryan Burgess
I was sorry to miss that one. I mean, like sketch

Brian Holt
is super cool. Yeah.

Jem Young
Yeah. Like you slide things on so many things. It's like weird to hear that in a podcast. And but

Brian Holt
yeah, it was it was prophetic to like, I think what components are becoming more and more relevant?

Ryan Burgess
Actually, more recently, I feel like they've sprung up. I honestly feel like in the last couple weeks, I've seen more and more about web components. And I don't know why.

Brian Holt
So it's not because the skate I love you, Trey. I'm so sorry. If you're listening to this, he's probably not because he's got better things to do, like change the world. What's the new one that I ionic released stencil stencil. Stencil J S, that's really going to change the game on web components. It's a super tiny polyfill. For the web component API's. It's, it's really, really awesome. Like, you can combine it with things like with React to target web components. It's really like next generation stuff. And then polymer, excuse me, like five beers deep. So excuse my pronunciation. Polymer will, is upping their game for sure. Like, I remember, I was when I was first getting in the field, like 2012 ish, 2013 ish. I went to flu and cough and Web Components was like, the, like, the raging fire was like, this is gonna change the game. And

Ryan Burgess
that was the last time you heard anything of it. I feel like that was I was at the same conference. So

Brian Holt
yeah, I don't want to. Okay, I apologize that I hate shitting on people that do great work. But polymer at the time was so force feeding the chrome way of doing things down our throats, that it was just wholly unappetizing. Especially because Mozilla and Microsoft and Apple were slash WebKit. Were saying we're not going to do it this way. This is you can't do this to us. It was almost Microsoft ish, old Microsoft ish old lifestyle.

Ryan Burgess
So now this is their

Brian Holt
pre Brian. Yeah, way of just like shoving it down your throat and they've really upped their game. Like, I want to credit that a lot to like, at not wold, our fun on Twitter and the various people involved in it. For really coming back to this tennis table, and really doing great things with that. So cheers to that.

Augustus Yuan
Cheers. Cheers. Translate was a positive trend positive web component. Cheers.

Brian Holt
Thank you, Augustus.

Augustus Yuan
You're welcome.

Ryan Burgess
Brian, what's your favorite episode?

Brian Holt
I just love listening to Shirley Woo. She's one of my favorite people in the world's great. She's so excited about everything. Yeah. And for good reason.

Ryan Burgess
She's brilliant.

Brian Holt
She's brilliant. Like, the things that she does with data visualization are just next level. I really just can't say enough positive things about surely she's a positive trend in this industry. So she's been on two episodes, O'Brien I know. Yeah, that's what you're just picking both. Yeah. All right. I'm gonna pick the one that I was on. But yeah, I couldn't make the first one with her. Yeah, no, I dragged her. The second one has like, No, we got to do this together. And we'll have

Ryan Burgess
her on again.

Brian Holt
I'm sure. Yeah. Derek,

Ryan Burgess
what are you?

Derrick Showers
My pick is the imposter syndrome episode. Yeah, I just think it's a really great topic and it's definitely something that a lot of people suffer from and and I think we had some Some good, like, points on both sides in that episode to just like, also the point of you know, being overused sometimes and for like certain things. So a lot of good. No, I

Ryan Burgess
think even that term, some people don't even realize that yeah, they experienced that. And then you're like, that's the term that describes what I'm going through. And yeah, I really liked that episode as well. I think one of my favorite ones is getting the bartender's attention, which is episode 45, that we had Bianca recruiter, which is

Brian Holt
my least favorite president, if we're being honest.

Ryan Burgess
But we had Bianca on from Netflix, he's a recruiter on our team there and just like hearing about how to improve building up your resume and how to get attention of the actual recruiting team or hiring managers, I always find that anytime we're talking about that. It's really valuable to kind of learn and get insights into that. What about biggest disappointments in 2017? Could be tech related? It could be just anything in general,

Brian Holt
don't don't give me anything in general.

Ryan Burgess
Alright, that might be scary.

Brian Holt
Just talk about that.

Jem Young
I'm gonna say web assembly.

Ryan Burgess
What about web assembly? Nothing

Jem Young
really moves. And that's a great like it has but no one's using it to the degree that I was hoping. It's like more of a game changer. I think people think it is, but nothing's really moving yet. Okay. So

Brian Holt
I have to voice some some serious disagreement with Jem here.

Jem Young
All right.

Brian Holt
Y'all missed the right. Yeah, definitely. Okay, I think the the WebAssembly game is changing a ton. I think people like Jay Phelps are getting out and really speaking about it. Like it's getting more and more into, like the consciousness of JavaScript developers, like Ramas wasn't built in the day and the Internet was built in a decade, right? Like, it takes some times for these things to change. But like technologies, like elm technologies, like all these other transpiled languages are approaching WebAssembly. And it's, I don't know if we're gonna see in 2018 fully realized, but I think 2019 2020 By the time we can change our goddamn fucking president. So web assembly will, I think will be more and more realized, like, it's, we definitely took a first baby step in in 2017. And I think it's going to continue, but yeah, I mean, web stuff just moves too slow for us to fully realize, I feel like an appropriate step was taken this year.

Jem Young
I yeah, I see what you're saying. I still disagree. Cool. But it didn't move to the degree that I hoped that other technologies would. But you can say the same about most technologies. Second biggest disappointment. I'm gonna say this is gonna be a shock to everybody. ServiceWorkers. Yeah, not even though you love that love service. We're not that service workers themselves are disappointing. It's that people don't get it. So like, two, three years later, like people have been preaching about it. But I still see once one talks about service workers, like, Oh, why don't you do this? Why don't you do this, they don't understand how it works. I was in a meeting in Netflix the other day, and I was explaining how ServiceWorkers and progressive web apps and people still didn't really understand. And that's disappointing that, like, stuff hasn't distilled properly, or just they're hearing what they want to hear and be like, ah, magic. And, you know, I was really hoping for the web to evolve a bit more than people to be like, Okay, I understand the pros and the cons. And like, here's what I use it, here's what I don't. But I still think there's like, I don't say Brian hold syndrome, but I'll say like, star star drops in there. And people were like, I heard Brian hold talking about it. So I'm gonna use it today rather than like, Here's what he actually said, the pros and the cons. Yeah. And like, maybe I should use it, maybe I shouldn't. But I think

Ryan Burgess
you'll use for the wrong circumstance, like everyone is like ServiceWorker, everywhere will will solve all your problems when it really doesn't necessarily. I think progressive web apps actually were disappointed in general. I think, to just pile on to the serviceWorker aspect, I feel like there's a misunderstanding on progressive web apps, what they actually are and what they're good for, and what that actually means, which is also leveraging a ServiceWorker. For the most part,

Brian Holt
I'll make the analogy that progressive web apps are two containers as the web is to Linux. In the sense that PW eyes are a collection of amazing technologies that make like some phenomenon very possible, but it's actually a collection of technologies that make one thing possible. The same thing with containers. Containers are like seven different things in Linux that make this like really cool virtualization strategy of possible Linux. And so it's like a really big moving target that's actually difficult to bring all these different technologies together, so that I actually really don't like the term PWA is because it encapsulates too much. It's a moving target appeal, like Am I a PWA? Is like Well, sure, maybe yes. No, like I don't I don't know. I had a discussion with this or about this with Henrik Jorik tag. I'm sure I'm mispronouncing that, especially a couple of drinks in sorry, Henrik. Unfamiliar it, I consider him the foremost expert on the matter. The foremost pragmatic expert on we'll go with that. Hashtag love Google. I think service workers are fantastic. I think a big problem is with our industries, we have such an influx of non I don't wanna say like non CS people, but more people that are like not equipped to deal with that level of complexity. Yet.

Ryan Burgess
You think service workers are complex? Yes.

Augustus Yuan
I actually don't think there. Yeah, actually, for the, for the record, talking about how nobody understand maybe maybe I'll just give a quick Yeah. Can we give a quick spiel? I'm starting to doubt

Brian Holt
that, that's always appreciated. We'll leave it leave it to Jem.

Jem Young
So what's a ServiceWorker? About first? Yeah, what are we? What are you asking?

Brian Holt
Or, let's go pull the

Augustus Yuan
definition of, or I guess the true, like, understanding of what service workers are meant for, rather than like, I guess, the naive first load caching case, that's not what they're for, like, what are they actually meant for?

Jem Young
I'll use the definition I actually use in a meeting the other day. And it was, if people if you have a single page app, and people come back to your site repeatedly, and your code does not change that often, if it does, actually scratch that, if you have a single page web app, people come back to your site repeatedly, you probably have a good case for progressive about possibly. But if you have a landing page where people are going to hit it once, and then probably not say it again, progressive web app is not terribly useful in that instance. And that to me, is one of the biggest differentiators that people just still haven't gotten yet. But going back to the highlight of 2017, I saw the movement in the rise of the let's just send down less JavaScript movement, which is like, great, cuz we've been preaching that for a year or two. Now. It's just, you want to make your page faster, just send down less JavaScript. Like it's a very simple concept. But it's just now sinking in like Addy Osmani JotSpot wrote, like, a lot of big people have started like, Yeah, let's just not use a framework or let's just make your page simpler. And there's like two different ideas about web pages and websites. But at the end, they're really not. It's just like, you have to understand, you know, exactly.

Derrick Showers
I feel like this has this has been, this has always been a thing. No, right. Like, yeah, I mean, it was jQuery. And then people were like, no, just use vanilla JavaScript, don't use jQuery. And now it's like, and then react and these frameworks came about and everyone was like, Okay, this makes it so much easier to reason about and like, architecture, even if you're, even if you're doing something small, like build it this way. Because then that way, you can scale it well, or, you know, whatever. There's like a million different things. So there's still like, we constantly go back and forth.

Brian Holt
Yes, we were trend. We trend. Cheers.

Jem Young
To that to yourself. But look up. This is last year, but Sony was trying to like what is progressive web app, there's like, you know, 15 blog posts about this is a progressive web app. nobody actually knows. It's just like a term that was thrown out there. But weird umbrella. It is weird umbrella. And it's it's more of a way of thinking kind of like flux was a design pattern. Cool. Yeah, that's specific technology. It's the same thing. But people think of as like it's a technology like, I need to implement react, I need to implement progressive web app. It's like, no, it's it's a way of designing your app and designing your application, or a way of like thinking about visitors or traffic, things like that, which, honestly, is a hard problem. Like that's senior engineer level thinking. But I think a lot of people try to jump in the pool and be like, I got a progressive web app. I'm like, you probably didn't need to, you could have done this with HTML, like, everybody would have been happy.

Brian Holt
Yeah, I want to backtrack for just a second, and talk about and defend my point of view. Local API proxy is not that difficult of a concept to finally grasp, even for I'm going to say, well, I guess I leave you to be the judge. I'm not gonna tell you what's hard. What's not hard. My asshole ivory tower position is that I think that even junior developers can grasp this with less difficulty but if you don't, then don't feel bad about it. Because that's more or less what a service worker is going to do with the league it's write some javascript that tells you whether or not you're gonna make requests and whether or not you pull from cash. That's like, nine out of 10 what it does, right that's fair. The issue with adding that is one grasping that just to begin with, because there are so many fucking stupid PWA articles that don't explain that like that. And to it, it makes the debugging so greatly more difficult, because you don't know what's being fucking cached by You're PWA and you don't fucking know what's not right. Fair fair. Anyone here disagree with me, I will fight you.

Derrick Showers
You're a developer advocate for Microsoft. Good point,

Brian Holt
I will tell your boss

Jem Young
caching is a hard problem. Everybody says in you learn to like day one and CS. You're like, Haha, yeah, it's hard problem. But it's genuinely a hard problem. And solving that is sometimes not worth the effort. Like the payoff of like solving a caching issue is sometimes not worth the effort of building a PWA. And that's a balance that like, you can't just explain this one an article you have to like, they have to get it,

Brian Holt
you have to experience the pain. So I maintain that this is a difficult thing to deal with. Because these are like seven new concepts to JavaScript developers. They're difficult trends gem

Ryan Burgess
cheers,

Augustus Yuan
cheers.

Ryan Burgess
What about things you learned in 2017?

Brian Holt
I learned that PW PW A's are fucking difficult. I

Ryan Burgess
think we all just learned that one cool. One thing I definitely did more of. I don't think I used it before 2016 But was React Native. I think maybe at the end of 2016 I started using React Native and I love it. It's great.

Augustus Yuan
I will say I started learning more foo because of that whole react license fiasco not that I thought that was gonna go away.

Ryan Burgess
Why was not a disappointment. I was

Augustus Yuan
actually was gonna say but licenses Yeah, think oh, yeah, those like a disappointment. But also like, I don't know, I felt like that can of worms was gonna open up someday, potentially. And then it did. It did. Actually, I'm kind of disappointed didn't go on for longer because it was like hilarious reading Twitter. Like everyday Twitter is like, oh my god, like

Brian Holt
my, my elder brother is a patent attorney, whom I hired to analyze the React license, pre pre MIT license and say, what's going on with this shit? Should I feel worried about it? Should I work like, warn my Netflix friends about it? Etc, etc. And the hilarious thing about this whole fucking situation is that if Facebook ever chose to revoke their patent grant, that it would basically go back to being the MIT license. app, then Facebook relicensed react as the MIT license so it's actually less rights that you had than under the previous license. Oh,

Ryan Burgess
what really?

Brian Holt
True story.

Augustus Yuan
Yes, anything?

Ryan Burgess
I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. Yeah, you

Brian Holt
don't know. You have no patent rights.

Augustus Yuan
You should tweet. Obviously. You

Brian Holt
had. Oh, I did a long. I know gives a fucking shit. I'm

Augustus Yuan
gonna find that I'm gonna retweet it and start this war all over. No, please.

Brian Holt
Please stop. I'm so done with this. Yeah, now you have no patent rights to anything. That's why. Okay, my learning for 2018 I don't know if we're getting there. But fuck that is licensed everything under Apache 2.0. That is a great way that is the best license. It's better than MIT. Apache. 2.0 is the best friend. Cheers. Cheers.

Ryan Burgess
Cheers. So I guess this you learned some view?

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, learn some

Brian Holt
view. Sorry, rant over.

Augustus Yuan
I think it's like actually, if you come from Redux, like Vuex is I feel not view X View X View X. Yeah, it's not that it's not that crazy of a transition. So it's great.

Derrick Showers
For me, I had a pretty big transformational year. So I've been doing iOS development, and specifically swift going actually, this kind of ties in well, with what we were talking about with the complexity of service workers. I think some of the stuff that Brian was getting to, although I don't know exactly what he was getting at, but

Ryan Burgess
Brian, never even Me neither.

Derrick Showers
But I think no, I think make a good point about some of the complexities and maybe not complexity, maybe complexity isn't very word, but just some of the computer science II things that you don't deal with as a JavaScript developer that I think is was really interesting for me to learn. And I think when you hear computer science, he things you think binary search trees and sorting algorithms and all this stuff, because that's what you have to learn to go through interviews. But there's so much more like, in my opinion, practical information, like threads and concurrency and stuff that you don't get as much as a JavaScript developer. So anyway, was even just like a static typed. I mean, I know that there's now ways to do this JavaScript with the with flow and TypeScript. But, but for me, that's new because I didn't I didn't come from a computer science degree or anything. So anyway, it was just it was it has been so far really, a really good trend for my personal life.

Augustus Yuan
Cheers, cheers to that.

Brian Holt
Swift is great. It's a cool language.

Ryan Burgess
It is nice and clean. Another one that I felt like and it's something that we started using Netflix I played with it a bit is Kotlin for Android has

Derrick Showers
some very nice, yes. Which is it, which is nice. And I was talking to some some of the Android Developers and like, just like, there's a constant of optionals. There's the concept of like, all the core, which is I just think is really goes to show that like, these new languages are kind of agreeing.

Ryan Burgess
They're thinking about it as in like, you can probably grasp both the concepts very well. I also feel like even as a JavaScript engineer, it's a little bit easier to grasp than something like objective.

Derrick Showers
I mean, like I work with, you know, still so like, if I'm working on a project right now, where we're kind of working on this feature in feature parity, and I can send a JavaScript developer swift and very easily reason about what's going on very easily. Yes, the syntax is very simple. Yeah. Yeah. And same thing for Yeah, you're right, with Kotlin. And that's even great for mobile development with Kotlin. And swift being so similar, because then you can have, because that's, I mean, web two, but that's been that's been an issue where you have typically smaller maybe, I mean, I guess it depends on what you're working on. But in my for my team is typically smaller, you know, mobile team. So it would be nice to be able to kind of float back and forth, at least to some extent.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, you could between Objective C and Java, but I feel like Josh harder. Yeah, like, I feel like Kotlin you can't

Brian Holt
you can't you can? Yep, should

Ryan Burgess
I've seen you definitely. I just feel like

Derrick Showers
they're easier. For you. Whoa, that's gonna be your next day.

Brian Holt
No, it's It's definitely convergent evolution, they both approach the problem from separate sides. And both arrived at similar. Like both of them feel like to me having looked at them, like if you took JavaScript today, if you're Brendan Eich today and had to design JavaScript in 10 days, it would look more like Kotlin or Swift.

Ryan Burgess
I like that summer summary. That's very good. So as we lean into 2018, what are you most excited for?

Derrick Showers
To get rid of Brian?

Ryan Burgess
Well, that's something we learned tonight. So yeah, I mean, for me, fingers crossed. We just talked about it. ServiceWorkers in Safari, I mean, it's in development. Now. I can't wait for that to fully hit. It might not happen in 2018, which is sad. I mean, but come on, if they've got a year, let's hope that Yeah.

Brian Holt
But to double down on that, like manifest json, a bunch of those PWA type things that we've we've qualified already. Really, if iOS will adopt those things, like we'll see hockey stick growth on on progressive web apps, right? Yeah. on things like the the amazing, like, I'm gonna reference Henrik again, but like the Starbucks web app for ordering things, and the well the Washington Post things for like all those PWA is, the problem is that Apple gets so much money from the web from the the App Store that

Jem Young
30% of their

Ryan Burgess
way out 30% of any thing that you

Jem Young
yeah, I forgot what's the revenue is made from App Store. But it's like, pretty, it's huge.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, look at even every time they go on stage, they talk about how many apps are in the app store.

Brian Holt
But yeah, you have to have faith like hope and faith that like they do have a really slick Web Payments API. Right? We should, let's have no fell back on here to talk about what payments because yeah, he released his fantastic library for doing web payments with made with React Native. And in my opinion, and I've argued this online, the Apple Pay one is the best user experience whether or not it's actually the best experience for like everyone involved. But I think with all these things that will give Apple enough impetus to expand the reach.

Ryan Burgess
Alright, I see you're on an iPhone 10. Do you actually think the Apple Pay is better on the iPhone 10? Or is it better on the previous version?

Brian Holt
If I'm a double clicking associate about this. Just terrible. No. The onboarding experience is like I spent 15 fucking minutes at Walgreens trying to figure out like, what do I do? I'm double tapping the fucking

Ryan Burgess
google it. I'm like, wait, I have to Google this poor UX.

Brian Holt
Okay. No, it was it was my wife who's like everyone knows everyone has met my wife. She's far smarter than I am. She's like, maybe double click the button like Oh, fuck apple.

Ryan Burgess
You soft use a button? Yeah,

Brian Holt
no, once I figured out was the fucking button. So there's two things they need to tell you. One on an iPhone and every iPhone. The NFC is on the top of the iPhone. Everyone just nodded. I don't. I didn't know that none of you knew them. Right? That's pretty obvious. It's not obvious. Hey, Hey, I

Ryan Burgess
would say

Brian Holt
hey, Derek it's still obvious. I googled it. This is hard won battle like, battle tested if

Derrick Showers
you watch all the keynotes, like I did, and it's obvious

Jem Young
Brian's rant cool. Go for it. Going back to this woman 2017 Yeah, iPhone, Derek.

Brian Holt
Oh, no.

Jem Young
I was not impressed with the flagship phones like the iPhone 10. Fully loaded, like cost more than computers now like a good MacBook Air even like, that was a little disappointing. The pixel two is like the flagship from Google. Very expensive compared to the Nexus. I'm not impressed either. Like, it's cool. But none of these phones have blown me away, but like they just keep getting more expensive, but nothing like mass shifting. I'm like, wow, phones have really?

Ryan Burgess
Some assholes waiting in line for them to Yeah,

Derrick Showers
can we get back to the highlights?

Ryan Burgess
Is that the iPhone? 10? Yeah.

Jem Young
Well, you have an iPhone. Like, Ryan, you have an iPhone. 10 I just got one. Brian has an iPhone. 10 Derek, you don't have an iPhone? 10 yet?

Ryan Burgess
Derek. Derek wait in line.

Derrick Showers
iPhone. 10. I got it the second day, unfortunately. Yeah,

Ryan Burgess
he was upset man.

Brian Holt
I was his tweets. But actually,

Augustus Yuan
I'm kind of in the same boat. I don't know if I can reason getting like with my own money, like company. But yeah, it's like, yeah, it's a lot. Like, it's like, I'd rather like okay, the way I'm picturing it. I'd rather someone steal my wallet than my phone. Like, yeah, like I'm walking around like holding a gold. Okay, maybe not a gold brick. But like, it's it's pretty. It's pretty expensive.

Derrick Showers
I think, though, but Okay. Shall I actually coin I want to hear I actually do I actually do agree. I think that to some extent. Although I think for me, I I would whether it's a pixel or whatever, the phone, whatever you think, same shit different brand. I would I would pay top dollar for a phone even more so than a laptop, because I feel like it's the device that I use the most more than your laptop more than probably anything else. Which I don't think that the coding on your laptop every day. Well, I mean, but but I'm using my phone. Yeah, like, you know, even when I'm at home, so I just I feel like that, like our phones are. I'm not saying in a way that you're always like on Facebook on either just just just, I mean, it's just the a computer that you're using, primarily. And I guess I don't I don't mind spending money on that. But I do agree that that it's a lot of money for, for what for what it is like I as much as I love the iPhone 10 Do I need like this all glass like, you know, like, and that's what made it expensive. That's just how they like, we're able to do certain things. And then that ended up making more expensive, like the wireless charging. I know

Brian Holt
how to do that, which is nice.

Jem Young
Yeah, well, welcome to 20 2017 Apple

Ryan Burgess
started charging. But you

Derrick Showers
know what, this is the thing though. No one and I don't and maybe they have just gotten lucky. And maybe this will maybe their luck will die. But it's like, everyone like bitches about the fact that that that wireless charging, like, welcome to the market, Apple and wireless. But, but I mean, it is now like all of a sudden, wireless chargers are everywhere. And it's like, you know, it's and it's not because there's more Apple devices, because we know there's not more Apple or Android supported it.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, that's the thing, but which is well, maybe I'm with PWM Yeah, like it's it's Apple does push that trend. NFC was everywhere in Android device. It honestly was. But Apple finally put it in the iPhone, and boom, we have Apple Pay. And now we have Google Pay everywhere as well.

Derrick Showers
That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Why is the like, that's what I think is something that I don't even know if they know how but but this is something that for some reason, whenever Apple introduces it, it has it just becomes huge. And it definitely helps everyone I mean, yeah, it helps with wireless charging. I'm sure people, I'm sure many wireless charger. Charging manufacturers are just like, Thank you.

Ryan Burgess
Thank you apple. Yeah,

Brian Holt
no, like, I think I mean, let's not speculate too much on what Apple thinks cuz one who gives a shit and to who gives a shit. But it's like, Apple doesn't support something until it's a great UX. And Google will err more on the side of early adopters, right? Yeah.

Ryan Burgess
Which is not a bad thing. Like we're appealing to to different markets. I think that's an okay thing.

Brian Holt
I'm a developer all day I fight with my computer all day to get my thing to fucking compile. When I get home. I just want shit to work. So I'm not a PC gamer like leaving. PC gamers have a better time? Yes, we do. Yeah, no shit. I've never disagreed with Jem about this, but I am lazy as shit and Gemini will also not disagree with About this

Ryan Burgess
no one will make you a good engineer though.

Brian Holt
So I sit at home and I just turned my fucking ps4 And it just fucking work

Derrick Showers
I totally agree like even even as much of an Apple fanboy as I am, like I you would think that I would, I would jump to the newest version of iOS and I do when it comes out as public but but I will never install beta on my device because I don't want it to work. And that's what I liked about Apple. So I don't want to destroy that with

Ryan Burgess
don't don't install high theory

Brian Holt
yet. That's what I'm optimizing for. I don't want to argue with my device.

Jem Young
Yeah. So and Derek, you're absolutely correct. Ryan has made the same argument when I've been on many rants about expensive phones are because they are like, more than a phone now that your primary many things I don't like it almost seems like plans obsolescence. Like show me a phone that last one two years. And it's like running as fast as did the day came out. It doesn't exist.

Brian Holt
It's a Nokia

Ryan Burgess
flip phone probably still working

Jem Young
two years from now. I want to be like, Hey, you all sold that iPhone 10 That you had like, no, it's slower. Broken.

Brian Holt
Y'all playing Snake? Yeah.

Augustus Yuan
Oh, yeah.

Ryan Burgess
So getting back to what we're excited to in 2018. The iPhone Xs. Not excited.

Brian Holt
This table is too heavy.

Ryan Burgess
Alright, let's let's move away from let's move away from iOS. Okay, you don't I'm super excited for Android in STAPs. Yeah, I am so stoked for that. I think it's like, I don't buy it. It's amazing in the sense that you can split up a piece of your app and have it launched instantly. And you buy it.

Brian Holt
It's just like

Derrick Showers
you're going off this podcast with a bang.

Ryan Burgess
With everything. You know what, Brian? Brian's gonna go off to the bank as being like Microsoft and create it.

Brian Holt
Yeah. Going back to Windows Phone

Ryan Burgess
10. Cuz that worked well.

Brian Holt
Okay. All right, in SAP. Okay. Imagine you were all the product manager of Insta apps? Yeah. How the fuck are you gonna educate people on what the fucking Insta app is?

Ryan Burgess
I mean, I don't think you have to, in your sense of way that you definitely do. In the way the Googles presenting it, though. Maybe you have to educate the pm of the company to adopt it. But as a user, you can actually link to it from a search term. So that can be happening behind the scenes to the user. They don't need to know about it, or but you're talking more to the product manager? I guess you did say that. So I mean, you just have Google to go around and do road shows all day long.

Augustus Yuan
Can we can we clarify? I think I know, on Google I O. It's it was it like you have an Android app. And now you can download like a like, like a small like a small enough portion of it. So that like then, like from there, you could like try some of the features in the app. And then from there, it's like, easier to just like download the rest of it or something. Right? The sort. And

Ryan Burgess
Google's even talked about trying to download the rest of the app and behind the scenes, right? We're right, which is, to me, that's a badass. Like, being able to just have this small piece, maybe it's a signup flow. Like you could think of like Evernote, you go and you go to this page on Android, and you sign up and then behind the scenes, it's downloading the rest of the app. So to the user that's seamless. Like that, to me is like a badass experience. You now don't have to go like sign up on the web, and then say, go download the app now log in. And I mean, yes, we can also do handoffs, I mean, shit, Brian SmartLock, right. Oh, my God. First Project, and that was my first project.

Jem Young
Like Smart Lock. Technology changes, I wouldn't say excited, but things we're probably gonna see more of, is we're gonna see more of the big tech companies throw their weight around, we saw a lot of in 2017. It's apps is a good example. It's like make your app the size, otherwise, you're going to get

Ryan Burgess
to be an instant app, you have to be under a certain right percent size.

Jem Young
We haven't mentioned that AMP pages, very contentious, but very much like Google saying, like, here's how you build a web page, do it this way, or we're going to drop in rankings. Facebook there, whatever the hell they're doing, because I still know Facebook is doing because like, they hire like crazy. They're building up their campus. Like it's

Ryan Burgess
getting massive, massive. They've announced they're doing San Francisco office, right.

Jem Young
But I still don't know what they're doing. Like

Brian Holt
I they know, today their UK office is expanding by 100 employees.

Derrick Showers
They're still there. I mean, but they're also doing something similar to like the amp stuff, right? Like they have a what do they call instant articles or something where you have to build your patients certain way? Yeah, that's a

Ryan Burgess
good point.

Jem Young
Yeah. It's like do you want you want our 2 billion audience? You have to use our platform?

Derrick Showers
Well, I think it's the same. Basically, they basically will penalize you if you don't, yeah.

Jem Young
But like, the arguments been made, and like I see this happening more in 2018 I wouldn't say it's the end of Silicon Valley as we know, but it is changing in that. If you're a competitor, Facebook will buy you, Google will buy you, Apple buy you, Microsoft, Microsoft will buy you. It's just

Brian Holt
we just this pounded me and Derek.

Jem Young
It's Elena like champion,

Brian Holt
but I already sold out.

Jem Young
That's true. But like, the game has changed, where I think there's a lot of startups that no, we don't have, like a feasible business model, we just wanna get acquired, because that's a business model now,

Derrick Showers
totally. But also, it's also a little bit of sorry, it's also a little bit of a vicious cycle, right? Like you, it's hard to compete as a startup when when you're just have these big companies that are just eating up other. So this is like, you almost have to be

Ryan Burgess
one of those big companies are looking for smaller people to like, invest in the technology, build it out, and then say, Alright, cool. You've gotten to this point, you've already are like, it looks viable. Let's just buy it up. Right? It's not a bad model for the like, small startup.

Jem Young
should wait like someone tell me a large social media platform that has launched in the past like three years, excluding Snapchat, which was a fluke. Wait, wasn't the

Ryan Burgess
MySpace not? ello?

Augustus Yuan
Just thinking, hello? Hello. Yeah. Yeah, it's like spiked in popularity. And they just like, because nobody realized Yeah, it's like they all made it. And then oh, man,

Brian Holt
you wanna you want to throw down about this? Because I was doing market research on it once upon a time because I was I was supposed to launch MZ right? Yeah, good point. Yeah, none 00 was the answer that question MC just close the doors. So yeah, no, ello spiked to them, they crashed. Snap would be the only one

Jem Young
that was the exception only because he turned down a crap ton of money, which most people would just take

Brian Holt
our Reddit, which I also used to work for already. Yeah,

Derrick Showers
I think an interesting trend. Cheers. That that may continue, especially with some of these acquisitions. I don't know if it's for better for worse, but a lot of companies seem like they're doing the the the YouTube I think YouTube was the first version of basically a larger, a company coming in and acquiring a smaller company, and, and supporting it to, like, at its core product, but not like overtaking it and making it like part of their own. So YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn. So like, there's, it seems like there's a lot more, it's kind of like the way beer companies are going. Like, you know, craft beer craft beer companies are like, are not overtaken to they can bring it into their own brand, but in a way that they can provide capital to help expand

Jem Young
big change in 2018. We saw the end of net neutrality, at least in America for international listeners, La Plata yet, it probably will eventually because that's the way

Brian Holt
I mean, it kind of does, because

Ryan Burgess
I mean, it's a start, it's a start, it's a start, start to the trend. Cheers,

Jem Young
cheers.

Brian Holt
No, yeah, I will not choose that. We are choosing,

Jem Young
it's a bad thing. It's silly to it's like to explain to your grandma, some point, just be like, net neutrality is like your cable company saying, or your power company saying like, we're gonna charge you a low rate for your refrigerator and run. But if you want to run your TV, we're gonna charge you more money for that. Because we don't agree.

Derrick Showers
If you really want to like that, if you really want to realize how stupid it is just go read about the counter arguments to it. And the amount of money from my where that money is coming from. It's just It's seems just so obvious to

Jem Young
Congress, they spend a lot of money to do that. Yeah, there's

Augustus Yuan
like this tweet that I think I forgot what country doesn't have net does not have net neutrality. I know you're talking about Portugal. Yeah, yeah. And there is like the sweet end. So basically, like ISPs will sell like bundles of apps they can use and can use only use those apps. So you can buy like messenger, like Snapchat, and whatever, and pay like 20 a month for just those apps. And I'm just like, terrified that we're gonna live in a world like that.

Ryan Burgess
Oh, man, right. That just seems complicated. And yet pain in the ass.

Derrick Showers
I mean, cable is bad enough. And it's finally getting to a point where, well, it's not yet there. But I'm hoping that eventually will come to a point where you have, you don't have to, like pay for all these different services just to get what you want. But it's Yeah, I feel like net neutrality is going the exact opposite direction.

Jem Young
It's a bad thing, especially as web developers, it's a bad thing we've always

Ryan Burgess
we've looked at is like, we build the web for everyone. Right? And that's like, and we try to do that with, like, even markets that don't have the best network connections is we're trying to think about that for performance and how do we make things work better? And then we're having the discussion of how can we cut and make more money, these large companies doing that and I just seem so anti web that that is literally against what was not what we fought for. Yeah, exactly.

Jem Young
It's disappointing though, because like, they were gonna win eventually. That's what's disappointing. The SAS is like, we've beat this down so many times so many years. And it's just like, they just won because like, they just keep trying, they're just like, well just wait Do you forget about it and then like it's nice

Ryan Burgess
to see the large companies though fighting back who definitely have seen any of the like large tech companies are pushing back against it, which is good. I think that's, that's helpful and I need it. We like Microsoft. Microsoft has definitely been one of those. Yeah. Alright, as we wrap up today's episode, we'll leave it on, on the note of neutrality like is a bad thing. But as we wrap up the episode, let's share some interesting pics that we've want to share with our listeners. Jem, you want to start it off? What do you have for pics?

Jem Young
Oh, man. I don't think so. The years Yeah, it's

Ryan Burgess
a tough one.

Jem Young
My first pick is going to be Perf Matters conference, run by

Brian Holt
stuff that Gemma's speaking it deservedly so yeah, I

Jem Young
am speaking on it. Paul Irish slim Clarke. Few other people, few people. We're still it's still like up in the air. But it's going to be very looks like an awesome conference.

Brian Holt
And it smells amazing. Yes. And so Wales running? Who is phenomenal? Yeah, she's,

Jem Young
she's a veteran of many conferences. So she knows that you're right. I think it's gonna be a very, very good conference. And especially with the rise of kind of low end markets kind of coming into the the foray of the web. I think performance going to be even more important. Absolutely. My second pick is slow TV. It is on Netflix. It is.

Brian Holt
Do you watch slow TV,

Jem Young
I love slow TV. It is it's Norwegian. I believe abortion. It's like eight hours of something really mundane. So one, I was watching it last night, it was eight hours of the train ride from Oslo to Bergen, which is supposed to be one of the most beautiful train rides in the world. I

Ryan Burgess
mean, literally, if you Google slow flow up, that's the first thing they show you're watching

Jem Young
a knitting one where they shared a sheep. And then by the end had knitted a sweater. And this is like eight hours continuously. It's just like amazing that this is on Netflix. If you need something in the background, that's offensive to everybody. Slow TV this fall in your office and people were like, Why are you watching a knitting competition, but it's amazing. And my final pick as a homage to Derek and Brian is the Microsoft Surface Book Two. I saw it someone had it in a meeting and I was like, wow, that looks amazing. That is gorgeous. But like that looks way better than a MacBook the new MacBooks came out. And it was like a Surface book too. And I was like what Microsoft has really like aesthetically knocked it out of the park on that one. It is a good looking computer. Way better than those. Oh, why don't we make a pic for the the touchscreens? Or the touch bars on

Derrick Showers
all the things that we hate? Yeah, that's okay. I've got

Ryan Burgess
Brian we have

Brian Holt
number one I'm going to pick. Babel seven.

Augustus Yuan
Ooh,

Ryan Burgess
great pick.

Brian Holt
Anyone that knows me knows that. I'm a huge Babel fan. I've spoken at multiple conferences. Like I think everything that Henry Zhu and and company are doing is phenomenal. I think it's definitely under appreciated edge of the web. So support Babel. Give them your money. It's something that I've done. I think I will continue to do.

Ryan Burgess
I mean we take it for granted. It works. So well.

Brian Holt
Yep. It's it is definitely one of those things that like it's just an underappreciated part of your infrastructure. You yell at them when things are wrong, and then you don't support them when things are right.

Jem Young
Henry should be a pick.

Brian Holt
Henry's honoree is I will also pick Henry. I think we can kind of lump Webpack in there as well. And I think parcel which came out really recently would be something worth your time checking out as well.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, it looks promising. Yeah.

Jem Young
What is parcel for?

Brian Holt
So So So for people that haven't seen a parcel is also another JavaScript Bundler. It's zero config. It works out out of the box with no configuration, which is you can't say for what for Webpack Webpack is the Swiss Army knife it works with every use case, parcel is going to give you like the fast path to compiling something with a really good configuration. There is another library out there that's based on Webpack that does very, very similar things too. It's called SFO.

Augustus Yuan
San Francisco Airport.

Brian Holt
Very similar. It's written by this really just giant asshole that No, he's just joined

Ryan Burgess
Microsoft recently. Yeah.

Brian Holt
Oh, man. He's the worst.

Augustus Yuan
Oh, hey, I know this. Brian.

Brian Holt
I wrote a library called SFO that does the same thing based on Webpack Babel es lint it's even more opinionated on

Ryan Burgess
this which kind of fits Brian Holt

Brian Holt
figures and then my last book is to not like the anti pick of Derek showers. That's it

Ryan Burgess
there that's a good way to pick just kidding. Derek showers

Derrick Showers
i my first pick is a podcast app that I I've been trying a bunch of them. I think I tried one that uses breaker which is buggy and yeah, I like the I like the concept of I gave up I really like Castro Have you guys tried no Castro I live on Castro is well done. This is perfect for you cool. It is iOS online, but it is it's everything I've been searching for so except with except the exception of the social piece, which I like to own breaker. But they basically let you manage your kind of up next Q really easily they implement a drag and drop on iOS 11. And it's just a really, really nice user experience. On the top of conferences, I'm going to go with a swift conference

Brian Holt
and turn off my shirt off.

Derrick Showers
It's it. It's been one of my favorites. I went to the one in New York earlier this year, they also do one in Bangalore and Tokyo. So also cool destinations. But it's a really good mix of people that are introduced, you know, being introduced to Swift and you know, some some more deeper, deeper level stuff.

Ryan Burgess
What's the conference

Derrick Showers
called? Try Swift. And my I'm going to get sappy from my last pick is our listeners because I think that we have like, we started I remember we started this podcast was just like, let's just get together and talk about shit and drink. And we still do that. And we still do that. But for some reason, there's a lot of people like listening to that. So no,

Brian Holt
thank you. But that's we

Ryan Burgess
got this good trend.

Augustus Yuan
Here's what a good trend.

Brian Holt
Cheers chin.

Jem Young
For together guys.

Ryan Burgess
Alright guys, this what do you have for us?

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, I have two picks. One is the common video, common voice project by Mozilla. I'm like a huge fan of like these kind of crowdsourcing, like, like Duolingo or like a moral machine from MIT and stuff. But this is like an effort to like, kind of help with like voice recognition. So you can contribute, you can speak and you can like help them asila and I even think they have like a deep learning like, machine learning TensorFlow implementation for you. Like that's open source. So you guys can play around with like, voice thingies my barbers. So I thought that was really cool. And my second pick is actually it was tweeted from surely like, I'll also think Shirley's awesome, you guys should definitely check her out. Her Twitter's up, she tweets awesome things. And she has like a really awesome stream too. But she tweeted this thing recently. It's algorithmic art by Tyler Hobbs. And he has a section called writings where he essentially like makes all this like art with like, algorithms, like he like just codes it up. And the coolest thing is he like writes up how he does it. And it's like the it's like so in depth of how he like goes into, like, how he creates like all these really, really, really cool art. So

Ryan Burgess
very cool. All right, well, I have two picks one to kind of fit with the things for 2018 is I've been creating a list for 2018 conferences. So I've added that all on GitHub. There's I've tried to get them all but I'm sure I've missed some. So please contribute and start. Yeah, and start that'd be good. It's definitely just a start. So there's probably more conferences to be added. And then my second pick is I've recently started a new tattoo, my new sleeve, so I'm going to choose the artist named Kevin Marr. He focuses on doing large Japanese pieces. So very, very cool work. What's

Brian Holt
the shops then?

Ryan Burgess
He actually has his own private shop called Revolution in San Francisco. Yeah, it is in San Francisco. He's very picky on what he does. It's very just like large body Japanese.

Brian Holt
That's how you know it's good.

Brian Holt
Before we it's good, I seen it. I have validated it is good. Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan Burgess
And I'm gonna add to echo Derek's point is thank you to all the listeners. That's a huge pick for us all

Brian Holt
about like echo the Swift part and I was gonna, you're gonna like smack me on that for that. Yeah. Cool. listeners. Great. Yeah. All right. Before we end

Ryan Burgess
the episode, where Can everyone get in touch with you all?

Jem Young
On Twitter at Jem Young or send me an email jim@netflix.com I got a few good emails.

Brian Holt
Awesome. You have to instantiate an Azure instance to get in touch with. Nice, just kidding. At Holt, VT on Twitter.

Derrick Showers
I'm at Derek showers and on Twitter

Brian Holt
or on LinkedIn direct message.

Augustus Yuan
Yeah, you can reach me at OG Berto, Aug pu RTO. Or you can also email me a y un@evernote.com.

Ryan Burgess
I'm on IC Q I mean,

Brian Holt
wait, what is your number?

Ryan Burgess
I don't need to remember. I'm on Twitter at @burgessdryan. Thank you all for listening today's episode, make sure to subscribe to the front end happier podcast and follow us on Twitter at @frontendhh any last words and Happy New Year. Cheers.