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Ryan Burgess
Welcome to another episode of the front end Happy Hour podcast. In this episode, we will be talking about transitioning to a new role. Last episode I mentioned, I have recently moved into a new role at Netflix. And I thought it was a great time to actually have a conversation of what that's like to move into a new role. And to join us on the conversation. We have two special guests, Tara Ellis and Jared Jordan, who also have recently transitioned into new roles. Terron Jared and I were actually managers on the same team at Netflix, before we took on new roles. So Jared, and Tara, can you give a brief introduction of who you are, what you do, and what your favorite Happy Hour beverages?

Jared Jordan
I'm Jared Jordan, I am the director of engineering at YouTube for sports and ala carte, and my favorite beverage is gin and tonic have a splashing on me.

Tara Ellis
I just, I just don't understand. Me neither. Alright, I'm going to try this. Now. I'm going to try before I stop talking on this

Jared Jordan
show the burden Kool Aid or boons and right.

Tara Ellis
Okay, um, so my name is Tara Ellis, engineering manager at Netflix, working in animation. And my favorite beverage is pretty much anything with bourbon. But if I had to choose, I would say I would say an old fashioned

Ryan Burgess
right on. All right, well, let's also go around and give introduction of today's panelists Mars, you want to start it off?

Mars Jullian
Sure. Hi, I'm Mark Julian. I'm a senior software engineer in the Bay Area. And all thoughts are my own, and also have a little splash eliminated them apparently.

Jem Young
Jem Young Senior Software Engineer at Netflix,

Ryan Burgess
and I'm Ryan Burgess. I'm a software engineering manager at Netflix. In each episode of the front end happier podcast, we'd like to choose a keyword that if it's mentioned in all in the episode, we will all take a drink. And what did we decide today's keyword is change change. If we say the word change changed, or anything along those lines, we will all take a drink to change. Cheers. So as we jump in, I'm curious for all of you. I mean, not just like I mentioned, Jared, Tara, and I've recently moved roles. But we've all done that at some time or another. And I'm curious for all of you, what is the signals that you start to think about, hey, I need to find new role, like what drives you to go find that new role.

Jared Jordan
For me, it has to do with me thinking about growth. I think when I feel like I can come to work, do my gig, and I'm not really learning or I'm just not excited about what I'm doing, then it's I begin to think about what's next. And obviously, you know, you try to look internally internal to what your current company is, and see and have conversation with your manager. And hopefully, that will lead to, you know, new opportunities or new growth areas. But that's how I kind of approach the situation,

Ryan Burgess
do you think there's ever fear and like bringing that up with your manager? Like, there shouldn't be, but would that be something that you should not do?

Jared Jordan
Absolutely. For me, there's always a fear, right? I mean, you know, your manager could also have an allergic reaction to that. But I think over time, I think that's, you know, that's a good managers role. And hopefully, all of you out there have great managers that are looking or unable to connect opportunities and say, Hey, this, this is an opportunity that we've been discussing. And that's also the key it shouldn't be, you know, you know, a surprise, like the first day you say, like, Hey, I'm ready to go, like, find me something today. Hopefully, it's like, over the course of a couple of conversations over the course of time, it's like, as I'm winding down this last project, I'd like to try something new. And so that would be an opportunity, or I'm looking at a new technology staffer, I wanted to challenge or, or something different, because you might have been doing this for such a long time. And so hopefully, it's not that shock of like, I want a completely new role. As opposed to, you know, I just want a new opportunity that allow me to grow my skill set.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, maybe it is a new role. Sometimes it means may mean moving to another team. But I think being open and honest about that ahead of time can be really helpful because maybe, maybe your manager is really great and can help you find that next role or maybe find it in the team to move you to another project or area but maybe it is like hey, there's there's a role opening up couple months from now and another team they'd be perfect for I think that's a good idea. I just know something People are always worried to say that to their manager and feel like it shouldn't be a concern. But I know, I know that sometimes. Yeah, some managers may feel allergic to it. Yeah,

Jared Jordan
absolutely.

Mars Jullian
I think that's an interesting point like, because I think Jared part is very positive. And that's like a great reason to change out cheers, change teams. To Ryan's point about, like, if your manager is having sort of those knee jerk reactions to your growth, like, that's another reason that I have in the past looked for new opportunities is sometimes when the dynamics or the politics of the team can get in the way of like, personal growth. And also just like getting your work done, no matter how interesting the company like the people really matter to and so not to go low when Jared went high. But it does remind me how important it is to like, have those good relationships with people on your team at your company.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, Maurice, I'll double down on that is, yeah, if your manager is no good, like, that can be a really big pain point for you, it doesn't matter how great the work is, or how great your team is, if your managers not good, hits, really, really tough. And so I understand that, I think that that's a fair point. And if you have a really bad manager, you should probably do something about it, whether it is like letting somebody know whether it's HR or giving your manager feedback. But if it's if it's not changing, like you got to get out. Cheers. Cheers

Tara Ellis
to both of your points. It's, it's a fantastic interview question. When you're looking at new roles to talk about, you know, to ask specifically about growth and how they manage growth in the fits, you know, there is an art to asking if you can, you can move, move around the company without making it seem like you, you just want to get in there and leave. But I do think right before you take that job is a good time, time to vent that. So I was just going to add those two cents in. And I really

Mars Jullian
actually does come all the way back to growth in the long run, though, because you know, if if it's about growth, and you're not growing, you don't have the challenges if you're not growing, because the dynamic is not great. You know, in the long run, it really is sort of like that, that long term career trajectory.

Ryan Burgess
I like what Jared said too, is like the not being challenged or being passionate about certain things, too, is that eventually that happens, like you've maybe you've mastered a space like you're like, I feel like I know, the code base really well, I know how everything works, we're doing the same type of work day in day out, I'm good at it. And it's like, I need something new and challenging. That's often been for me why I've looked for new roles is on like, I need a new challenge. And that's it, like it's not a bad thing. It's like I love what I'm doing. But it's just like, I need something new to challenge myself. And so that's been some times where I've often found myself being like, I need to look for a new role.

Jem Young
It's important understand yourself, when you're talking about challenges. I think it's easy to work somewhere for a year, which is usually about the time it takes to actually understand what's going on at any company. And then you look around, you're like, Oh, I'm not challenged anymore. Or it could be that the challenges you're presented with are not something you feel comfortable taking on, which is why people frequently move. So like a year in two years in. It's like, cool. I'm now top dog at this company. I'm the boss, Senior Software Engineer. But to push beyond that requires people management or a deeper dive in technology or managing tasks and things like that, which is often not where some people may want to go. So they kind of bail. And I've actually seen that a lot. It's that proposal question Why aren't there more senior software engineers? Because it should just be a function of time, right? We've been doing this a long time. Only, I think 10% of people, our Senior Software Engineers, or qualified Senior Software Engineers, it should be a lot higher than that. But it's not because people fail. They they stopped growing, because it's just too challenging. So it's I really like the point of like, oh, you need to find a challenge, things like that. But it's important. Understand, it's not just shifting roles. Sometimes Sometimes you have to find where the challenges, and maybe something that it's really uncomfortable for you.

Tara Ellis
I think the other way of putting challenge I think for me is boredom. I'm bored. Right? More so than like, and that that for me, generally speaking is easier to identify if that makes sense. And it has to be boredom over time, right? It's not like the natural ebb and flow of jobs where sometimes things you're working on. Isn't that interesting, right? But if it's had happened enough, and I've scooted around, and I've tried to figure out, okay, how do I become less bored and I haven't been able to then that's when I would start having those conversations. But I guess the reason I tend to like that emotion over challenge, per se, is that there are many things maybe this actually plays into what you're saying, Jem that challenged me that I don't want to do. Like, I don't well for a long time. I didn't want to do public speaking, right? Like, I don't have a problem with it now. But for a long time, I just was like, This is not a thing I'm interested in doing. And I'm being pushed into this thing. So I can grow. Just like, but this isn't a skill I want to grow. Right. And I mean, like I said, eventually, in that, in that regard, I changed my mind. But But, um, but yeah, it is a balance between Oh, I'm bored. I'm not growing. And I would like to do something more just different. Yeah,

Jared Jordan
I like what you're saying there about looking inwardly first. And in gym twos, like looking for the challenges. And really first because and bringing those with your, your leader or your manager, and having that conversation of like, this is where I'd like to go. And I've already done some due diligence myself, like, sometimes it's hard when somebody says, I'm bored, and you're just like, oh, okay, okay. Cool. How do I onboard you? Hey, I was just going to work. But that's the only thing I know what to do. Right? So then hopefully, it's, it's not a surprise. So you know, it's like, Hey, I've done these, these kinds of acts have had these kinds of experiences. And these are the, and I've looked around and that thing, right, there seems like a great opportunity. You know, I've often tried to poke at things in my career, if I measure like, that looks cool. Like, can I do that? Then see what the reaction was? That's been like, super helpful, because sometimes you get a unexpected response, like, not this, but that is that could be the next thing.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, it's like you don't know until you ask, right? Like, what's the worst thing that can happen is if you don't ask like, nobody knows. So I think that is good. Jared, bringing that up is really good. I'd love to hear your point, too, because I kind of remember when you didn't want to do public speaking, and we're like, nope, nope, don't want to do that. And I think that that's, I think that's okay, too, is like, growth doesn't mean necessarily, that you want be challenged in some brand new area, like if you've never done that before, and you're like, Oh, well go do this terror that's like a new skill set. It could also be just challenging yourself what you're great at, like, how do you get better at something? You know, maybe it's like, even as engineers, how do you do that at scale? How do you do something more broadly, and that that can be enough there too, that's even something I looked at when I was going for a new role was trying to find something where I could take my strengths, and challenge them even more to like, grow into them and do it at a broader scale? Yeah, for sure.

Tara Ellis
For sure. I think it's funny, because it's interesting, because I think, like, now I'm kind of stuck on this. Oh, I think it's kind of there's like these, these two sides, right? There's the one side where like, growing in the ways that you want to grow, right. And sometimes it's growing in the ways that you need to grow whether you want to grow. Yeah, like, like, if you're trying to get to whatever that next level is, let's say if you're trying to get to a senior software engineer, but you don't ever want to design or architect something. Right. Like, that's that that would be a hard thing to achieve, right? Without actually growing that skill set. Right. And so, like being able to kind of recognize that difference. And I think, for me with the public speaking thing, I think, initially, I don't know that I saw the value in it. Like at that stage, right? I'm not talking like I facilitate meetings I read. So like I, I speak in front of small groups all the time, right. But the ability to talk in front of like an audience. And I think over time, though, I realized, hey, actually, I think this would help me have more confidence and other things. If I were, if I could get comfortable with this. And then when I started to kind of really understand the value of what it you know, could could work and flesh out other areas, then that's when I was like, Alright, let me try to like commit to doing this. And it's awful and really hard and scary. But, you know, it's pretty cool. I mean, I still isolated grudgingly respected, like Jem's the master, you know, so.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, it's hard to compare yourself. Yeah, it's very hard to compare yourself to Jem, let is very, you know, that's a fool's errand right there.

Jem Young
It's it's a unique skill set that I that I have. But you know what, I'm bad at that. You are good at writing docs. I am terrible. It takes me so long to write a doc and I'm the exact opposite, or same as you for public speaking. But for writing Doc's I was just like, I don't see the value in this. I can explain this to people much faster than I can write a doc and that's what I'm good at. So I want to do that. But it's the same thing. I'm like, no, there. This is a skill that I need to learn because I can't scale myself to explain it to every single person. If I'm ever going to move past senior software engineer. I have to be good at writing documents because that's what sea levels and directors and all that consume. So yeah, same I really like I really like the points being made today. So slight change growth. I like to point about boredom and the boredom over time change tears, and its boredom over time that should determine and not that individual like I'm bored for a week or two. Maybe I should move on. Oh, Google's a Collin. Well, let me just

Tara Ellis
record for a week, go take vacation. And then

Ryan Burgess
which also gem I love that gem brought up the docks part because I know I'm so guilty for being like, gem, you should put that to dock socialising back, you know, it's a great idea. He's probably heard that from me like a million times. And it's like, I've definitely pushed you that

Jem Young
I hate reading dogs. It's so it's so tedious to me. I'm like, Ah, well,

Tara Ellis
I got some tips for you, Jem. I can I'll share with you offline some things that has made it a little easier for me to do

Mars Jullian
do I also on the topic of darkness, like the fascinating tweet, which is like if you're going for quantity of or like our speed of work, then meetings are the way to go. But if you're going for quality of work, then doc writing is actually the way to go. Just for to put that out there.

Ryan Burgess
I like that. No, yeah, that is why fall in the middle.

Mars Jullian
You can expand them later that

Tara Ellis
slides, the dump docks. The docks docks,

Ryan Burgess
I'm surprised though I would have thought like getting an idea in a dock would have been faster sometimes. Rather than having do we meetings, on meetings on meetings, like sometimes I feel like meetings aren't as effective versus like putting your idea in a doc, you can literally get that out there and get feedback on it really quickly. I would have thought that that was faster. Also quality, though. So maybe it's just I don't like meetings that much. I don't know,

Tara Ellis
I definitely think meetings are faster. I mean, I think it's just so much easier. If you have if you have a strong facility, I guess with verbal communication, it's just way quicker to be like this, I need this I want this was settled, like go right versus like, cuz I think when you sit down to start writing, and this is this is one of my tricks gym that I'll share with you for free on here for free. Oh, I'm a verbal processor. And so when I sit down to write a lot of times, it's really, it's really hard for me to to get all of my thoughts together because I'm used to speaking them. So if I have something really complex to work out, like, I will go talk to someone like I will sit for like hours with Cal and I'll just talk through the whole thing. And like after like an hour or so I'll be like, Okay, I know exactly what I want to write like, I have like the outline like I have everything kind of sorted out. And then it's just literally putting it on paper, but the structure, like it's hard for me to do on a blank piece of paper. I really do have to kind of verbalize it.

Ryan Burgess
Now I hear you on that I always have to like, jot a bunch of mess down or like you said talk it through. But yeah, that that's a really good point is it doesn't just flush out immediately when I sit down to the computer. So

Jem Young
this is coming back to topic. This we're notorious to do, I think Mars your quote really ties in about like, if you want it done fast have a meeting? If you want to have more impact write a doc, and what are the signals that I use when I decide to change a child is am I having the impact that I want? Like, am I am I doing work that is fulfilling to me? Like yes, no. And and on top of the impact? Am I being valued for the impact that I'm giving the company. And a lot of times I use value as a well, not necessarily a one to one comparison. But salaries often or compensation is often a measure of value, how much the company values if you can leave and get 100,000 at another company, well, then your current company doesn't value you enough. Like it's it's pretty cut and dried to me, but it's not always money. It's always sometimes it's just like, hey, the director came down and said, Hey, good job, Jem. Like that work on a project. That's it. That's super valuable, too. And I feel like it's a lesson that leaders still don't get, like the power of just a compliment to really make people feel valued and keep them out of job a little bit longer. It's

Ryan Burgess
positive positive reinforcement, Jem it is it goes a long way. Yeah, but I mean, I will admit, I definitely am a big fan of it. But at the same time is if you know you're 100k undervalued, you still feel undervalued, right. Like I do think money plays a part in it. I think that's completely fine to say it too. Is that like you want to be feeling like you're valued for the contributions you make and a lot of that is you know, comes with Yeah, positive reinforcement that goes actually a fair amount but money and then also entitle to right like an end or or your impact in the things that you're given and growing from so I think like growth money and yeah, I like the positive impact like or the positive feedback. I think that goes a long way is interesting about

Tara Ellis
title because I've worked in so Many flat organizations that I think the only there's only one time I think I cared about title. And that was at my last company. Because there were there were just what was very hierarchical, there were just so many levels. But I was so clearly doing the work of a staff engineer and the fact that I was still a senior engineer was just frankly, just offensive to me. So I fought really hard for that because I was just like, you're getting all this extra for free, but you don't and you don't want to give me the title for what I'm actually doing so but that's that that was probably the only time that I did I really did it. I was like, No, this is insulting now.

Ryan Burgess
Alright, tariffs, five, flat, if you just got the title, but no salary increase?

Tara Ellis
Well, here's the problem. I had the opposite. I got the money, but no title. Okay, they were like, they were well compensating me. I was in like, the top were presented my level being paid, like across the whole company. But I was like, it's the principle.

Ryan Burgess
Oh, that's fair.

Tara Ellis
I mean, like, I, you, I'm doing all of this work, and you won't give me this title. But you just want to pay me like that. No.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, that goes into our like, egos a bit to write, like, it's like, Hey, I'm doing this work. Like, give me the title. Like, I think that that plays

Tara Ellis
about recognition, going back to reinforcement, right? Like, you know, I want to give impact, I want to drive impact. I also want to be seen for the contribution that I'm making, right. And I want to also give that to other people, like, you know, I mean, it's, I'm very, I'm very pro, I'm very pro positive reinforcement, because I think like, oh, art is it, you just don't say, Hey, thank you for doing this thing that you didn't have to do, or

Jared Jordan
what you're touching on about being valued. And I think that just means a lot to a lot of different people. If you, you know, if you have a leader that doesn't, like kind of tell you that you're valued, then you start, you know, get the wandering eyes every once in a while. And you know, we all have friends in the industry, and we all friends that we talked about lunch or breaks. And so that makes a that's a big deal. And you know, it's a reminder, oftentimes, might actually have to scribble it down. To say, like, you know, there's some thank yous that I need to hand out. But even in those thank yous, I have to take time, because I want to be very specific in my thank yous. Because that passive just saying, like, you did a good job. It's like, what, what we're gonna do is, what does that mean? But like, in this meeting, I like the way you drove this action. And it resulted in, you know, an impact to the project. You know, those are the ones that stick with folks, because they actually saw you were paying attention.

Ryan Burgess
Yeah, I mean, value goes a long way. I think that's like stems from a lot of this. Like, it's funny, I was just thinking about, there was literally times where I was telling my manager, I do not feel valued, and it was clear, like, I'm not feeling valued for the role that I'm playing. And it was, like I said that for a good year, and nothing changed. And so it's like, sometimes you can spell it out for people, and they're still not getting it. And so that's not great, either, like, I love Jared Yardi. Like, I'm going to be proactive on that. And that's like, that's great. Because like, it goes a long way. It's not about always about the money or title. It's sometimes just being like, Yeah, someone noticed that I did a good job

Jared Jordan
in those instances when you don't feel valued, like how do you rectify that? Like, how do you rationalize that when you know, you're doing your job? I guess the meta question probably is, if the work or the company doesn't value, the skill set the year, you think that is important, Senator into yourself that you derive value out like or how do you thank you for that?

Ryan Burgess
That's a great question. I think for me, in that instance, it was like, knowing that it was still like, I was still what I was doing was still bringing value to the company. So it wasn't like, I'm gonna stop doing this, it was like, I'm going to continue doing these things, because it is important. But I would look to others to maybe make sure I'm doing the right things. And so I would get feedback from others. Maybe it wasn't maybe my manager wasn't the best person to get that feedback from. So it was like leaning on others in the company to say like, do you think this is still the right thing for the business or what the company needs, and and trying to get that, you know, input from others, and maybe people even saying like, this is amazing, keep doing that. But unfortunately, sometimes that only goes so far, because at the end of the day, your managers there who decides your pay, or your promotion of titles and things like that. So there there becomes a point where you still need your manager to kind of buy into that. But I think you should still be able to look to others to get advice and feedback on that. So I'm curious with all of you working at various companies, Tara and I recently moved to internal roles at Netflix. Jared you move to an external but I'm curious like for everyone, is that an easy thing to do? internal external, like, I've done both, obviously, but I think this is the first time I've ever done it internally. And you know, I'd love to hear everyone's experiences, you know, external versus internal moves.

Tara Ellis
I don't think I realized this. This is the first time you've worked for a company where you, you just you, is it? Yeah. Is it? Is it because is it the size?

Ryan Burgess
Maybe it's the size, I think the size makes a difference where bigger companies, you have more opportunity for moving? When I was at Evernote, I went from like a lead front end engineer to a manager. But that wasn't really Yes, that was a role change and all that. But it wasn't like I changed teams. It was just literally, like thrown into it. I don't think I've actually like shifted to another org or team at another company. It's usually I've gone to an external company, you

Jem Young
bring up a good point, now that now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, Have I ever changed internally? Like, no, I've always switched jobs. And I feel like if you polled most tech workers, they probably said they've always switched jobs. So does that like illuminate there is a problem in Silicon Valley, where we don't tend to promote internally enough or push internal transfers?

Tara Ellis
I think it depends on the on the on the company. I mean, you know, I I've moved jobs. And I spent seven years at Amazon. And I've had people ask me, how could you possibly have spent seven years there? And I'm like, I wasn't on the same team. I was on like, four different teams in that timeframe. Right. But it's a big company. So it was very easy to move. orgs it'd be doing some, like I was working in a different company, I moved roles at teams at Disney. And I move teams at Netflix, right? And I've also left companies clearly right. But my general, my general bias if is i, if it's a big enough company, then I want to know that I have the ability to move around and kind of explore what everything that it has to offer. Because even if the culture is mostly the same? Well, I mean, that the game is on actually, it's completely different. Like, depending on where you work, it's a completely different experience. Right. But, but But you have that, when I've left, generally, when I've left companies first without moving, it's because there just wasn't an option really to do that. So I don't know, I guess I think, I don't know, I guess I feel like it's more about size than then promotion.

Jared Jordan
I agree. I mean, I moved companies, I'm mostly I think every company that I've had, I've moved internally. Before I moved externally, it was mostly the luck that they had other roles, or, or, or they asked for other opportunities. And I think in to be real, it's always easier to move internally, like the inertia fight, you don't have to go to a recruiter, you can talk to the hiring manager, directly, you know, all of these things you could ask your friends or mentors or partners or sponsors, like are there opportunities around and you already come with a known set of credibility that's greater than your LinkedIn internally. And so I generally try to move internally first, I think that's, that's, that's generally the the thing that that is exciting, especially if you like the company and the culture. And then there are those rare instances where you're an opportunity is so great, that you just have to take it or you're compelled. Or maybe it's comp I think the other part of what Jem is saying is, I don't think it's a myth. I think it's like people believe 100% that they will get greater compensation if they even move for the same title to different companies, but they'll get more comp right and so I think that is a driver and that's a real driver for some folks.

Ryan Burgess
I think that's okay, goes back to value you know, if you're getting paid more somewhere else that that is key to value.

Jared Jordan
Yeah, people value that differently like financial security. For a lot of people they say calm but it's really like you know, you have a family and so the quicker you can get financial security that the safer you feel and the easier it is to do your job and then that translated to you doing your best work

Jem Young
as well put those those really well put

Ryan Burgess
so we've all decided at some point or another it's time to move on to wavy is it internal roll maybe it's an external roll doesn't matter you've decided you're moving what are the next steps like what do you take like what are some things that could help people when they're planning that next roll?

Jem Young
Show up to the office in your fancies for code flip off your boss and your role? Do a burn out of the park and walk your way out the door? Yeah, oh, sorry. That's how I do fix your style Yeah.

Tara Ellis
I have known people who have who have quit and some pretty fantastic ways, taking their badge off and throwing in their managers face while flogging not a Netflix but it has that's a really good question. You know, um, this this move this one Most recent move, I think is probably the most thoughtful. I've ever I've ever approached a move in the sense that there was like a lot of process for me like to do it. I wasn't just like I'm done. And then and then I moved jobs, right, which is actually how it usually is for me, like, I have someone who's like, I try like I'm in and I'm in and I'm in and I'm in. I'm not right. Like, it's not like this weird back and forth. And so this was the first time where I felt like, oh, I have some problems here. And these problems haven't gone away. Right, these problems have been here for at least a year now. And to be fully transparent, I'm in a pandemic. And, you know, while some people, I think the pandemic made them be more like risk averse. And I think for me, it was more I was more like, well, if I'm going to be stuck in my house, working on something 10 hours a day, I better feel super passionate about it, and I don't right now, you know. So that's what really prompted me to really be intentional about it. And so what I ended up doing was, I did actually go to my boss, and I gave him two messages. One was, I'm not happy, I'm not growing, and I'm bored. And I've been in this role for four years, which is like, a lot of time. Right? So. So it just could be that I've done I don't know, I would like to talk with you about that and see if we can't, you know, work out like what could possibly change? Or can we address some of the stagnation I feel? And then on top of that, I said, and I'm going to look externally, and to see what's out there. And and so I did do that. And we spent like, two months like talking about it while I was talking to other hiring managers. And I was going through like thought exercises and like journaling. What do I want to do? Like, I've never done that, right. But I'll tell you, the interesting thing is, I was really clear with what I wanted, like. And so the evaluation of the other like four roles I was looking at, was like, I could go down the checklist as it give me this, this, this and that, right. And so while time consuming, and highly dependent on having a patient manager, it was actually really, really useful and really helpful. And it's totally something I think I would do again, maybe maybe I wouldn't necessarily tell my manager if I was moving externally. But, but, but it would be something I would I would spend the time really trying to sit and go through the exercise of trying to figure out what I wanted to do next,

Jared Jordan
in hindsight, was all of the journaling. And sitting in a sauna, sweating it out with your dreams. Did you get what you wanted? In the role that you ended up taking?

Tara Ellis
That's an interesting question. So on the one hand, yeah, I do. I mean, I think everything, everything that I had outlined that I wanted, I absolutely got. What's interesting, though, was once I got into the role, and this is no shade to the role, but I realized, oh, as thoughtful as I was, there's still these other things. Like I had not anticipated. And now I don't have them, right, like and so it was like, so that's also been like an interesting, like, maybe it's me.

Ryan Burgess
You know what, doTERRA, I think you're always learning, like you always are learning like the next time, you'll be like, oh, I need to look for this, this and this. Like, I feel like every role that I've gone in switch for sometimes it's literally like, I'm ready to flip the table. I'm out. Like, I'm so mad. I'm out the door. Now I'm catching it a little bit earlier. And I'm like, oh, I need to be thoughtful about that. But even know, I just made a role transition. I'm like, I would do 10 things differently. I'm super pumped on my new role, but there's things that I maybe would have done differently leading up to it, maybe I would have actually done it sooner. You know, like so there's always things that I think you learn so you're being too hard on yourself.

Tara Ellis
I feel bad because I feel like oh my god, you guys have given me everything I've asked for what is my problem?

Ryan Burgess
Probably problem is we learn and grow.

Jared Jordan
That's right. Like I think you you prioritize sometimes what you think but what is absent, but not think about what you really need. And I've done that so many times when I've taken a role. It's like, I have to have the 15 direct report. And you're like, No, actually, that's not what I really need. I mean, he does like a project that's sustainable and make sense and not be on projects that are you know, second level all the time. And so like how do you like how do you figure that out? Like right before you're about to take a role? And so I certainly resonates with me,

Tara Ellis
what about you Mars when you when you when you pieced out 1400 years ago now

Mars Jullian
what Am I taking you with me from the previous role? Or what am I going into the new

Tara Ellis
role? I was curious what like, what to Ryan's point? Like, what brought about the chain? Like, once you once you decided to change, like, Yeah, how did you how did you affect it? I mean,

Mars Jullian
I think what was really nice about Netflix is that, and I recognize that everyone's relationship with their managers different, but I could be very open about what I was missing. And be very transparent that you know, looking for the next role or position. I think kind of, to your point here about introspecting. Like, that's super important. But I also don't necessarily know that I knew what I was looking for either. So I don't know it. That's kind of like, I feel like it's very much a trial and error still like, and I don't mean that in terms of my career, but just sometimes interviewing or finding the right position to go to next can be very much a trial and error, especially if like you're focusing on what you don't like about your current role as opposed to what you really need, like Jarrett's point. So that it's tough, it's really hard to like, make sure you're considering both of those when you're looking at a new position, because there's so much going on, because you're like, Who are these new people I'm going to work with what is my, what is my competition going to look like? What's my, like, even the smallest things like my commute, do like, you know, that kind of stuff. It's just really hard to keep everything top of mind. It's sometimes the important stuff falls a little bit by the wayside.

Ryan Burgess
I mean, commutes a factor, like you know, we talked internally right now, like people moving in, like Tara, going through her lists, and being very thoughtful about what are the things that you want to move on? Can you can be one of those like compensation, all these different things, your team, your manager, the work that you're doing. But like, I think back to early days of before I joined Netflix, I got reached out from Netflix a few times where I was like, Oh, no way I'm doing that commute, like I was dead set against doing that commute, where I'm like, I'm not doing that. And so that that was an important factor for me where I was like, No, I don't want to do that commute. And so I think that that is something that can change, you know, to Jerry's point of like, you care about, like your salary to like, you know, for your family. And and thinking about that, well, for me, it was like, I don't really want to be stuck in traffic for an hour every single day. So I think those things do matter. But also you kind of learn what to ask and learn about the next role, right? Like you start to do ask the right questions. Another thing that I've reflected on is, especially when we're in these larger companies, where there are options to move internally, i My advice to people is, even when you're happy in your current role, do a little soul searching and check some other areas like you might be interested in something else is probably better than when you're running from something like you don't want to be running from a role or a manager or anything like that. Because then you might rate make rash decisions versus like, Ah, maybe in the future, I might be interested in something and I learned a ton about Netflix just interviewing with other teams is it

Jared Jordan
is okay to run from something you're just like, Oh, sure.

Ryan Burgess
Okay. Yeah. I mean, if you're unhappy, yeah, no, like, abusive managers get, like, do it.

Tara Ellis
My life that I never gave notice on I was I just come like, I just come after Japan. And I took this, like, sales job. I don't know what I needed a job. I was like, 2223. I took the sales job. And I was in like, the boss was the director. Like, he was crazy. Like he just he was like, you'd watch a movie. And you wouldn't believe that this guy existed. And it's like, I think I was there for like three months. And I remember I was working on some deals and like they I didn't even wait for the Commission's I just like, left them all on my desk. With like a note. They walked out to go on the field. And at five o'clock, I called and resigned. And the thing is that like, I've never not given a job notice before but I was like, I didn't feel safe. I was like, I'm not gonna resign and had this guy completely abused me in front of all these people. Like, I'm 23 I'm like, Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I didn't even have another job. I just was like, I'm done. Like, this is not. This is awful. So yeah, that's a run from.

Ryan Burgess
So before we jump in and picks Tara, Jared, myself too included, we move during a pandemic. It's odd. And Terry, you alluded to some people might be risk averse. But you're like, Oh, if I have to be stuck in for 10 hours a day on this job, I want something different. I'm curious what has been maybe unique for each of you moving in a pandemic. I don't

Tara Ellis
regret moving. I think it was the right call. But it has been way harder than I thought it would be. And I think I'm in a permanent particularly you know, unique situation where I move to a new org that also is new. So everyone's new. So it's not just me, it's like, you know, like, my director has been working in this space. But now he's like building out this whole new or, or like the designers are new to this space. Like, all the engineers I hire, the UI engineers that were hired, all of us are new to this space. So, you know, it's always important to kind of have good team bonding and to build that rapport, especially when everyone's new, but then when everyone's new over over Google meet. Like, it is just, it's just awful. So that is not a thing I had anticipated. And while I am actually impressed with our output, considering the case, it's been really hard, I think I would definitely do it again. But I would just have clear expectations about like, this is what I can affect, this is what I what I can't, this is what I need to like, nip in the bud sway sooner, right? And then these are just the things that like until we're in a room together, you know, we're offering an 85%. And that's just how it is. And that's okay.

Jared Jordan
Yeah. Similar, Martine all came together in Corona. And so, and they went from three to, I think, 20 something, and now we're onboarding another 20 People in the next six to nine months. And so I think, is, there's a lot of shorthand in onboarding, when you have a mentor right next to you, like, hey, let's just pair program this real quick. Let me share this with you. But right now, you know, I think that's the struggle. And I think it's goes back to what Marrs kind of said is, if you if you want to scale, right, you have to be good at documentation. You can have a meeting that day, and your calendar looks in, like my calendar. And so I probably should learn to write some docs, right to help out scale. But that is, I think, the hardest thing, because we've taken for granted the ability to just meet with somebody coach them up, and then let them ask questions when needed. And it's probably much easier and more efficient right now to have some really strong documentation. And that's focused on, you know, the exact five things that you need to focus on in the first week, exact three things in the second week, and so on. And so yeah, I

Ryan Burgess
think for me, I think what Tara mentioned earlier, I think it just accelerated to like my wanting to move is like, there's some things where you're just like, hey, I need the change. And in some ways, it made it a bit easier, like interviewing is kind of easier in some ways where you don't have to go in person, like if you are interviewing externally, you're literally in your house. So it's just blocking off time on your calendar. And, and it makes it a little bit easier. It's still tough, like, don't get me wrong, like interviewing is an added stress. And like we already have enough stress on us during the pandemic. But it did kind of make interviewing easier, just in the fact that you can be in your job. And then five minutes later, you're in an interview, and then you're back to your job. It's not the whole, you know, Jem mentioned of like, wearing the fur coat walking into your office, like what are you doing today? You just so nice. It's like, interviewing, like, it's a little bit easier in that sense. And, and so I think like that kind of can accelerate it in some ways. But it's still not easy to a lot. And like the onboarding points that you've made to Jared. It's weird. It's just different. We're all we're all learning how to operate in a pandemic. So

Tara Ellis
you guys had an experience? I didn't for sure. I didn't interview. I didn't have to. I didn't do any interviews. So I don't know, I've conducted interviews, but I have not been the interviewee in this forum. So you feel like it was mostly the same? Or was easier, right? Because you were in your house? Or is that what you're saying?

Ryan Burgess
easier in the sense that normally you are, you have to try and schedule those days. Like if you think back years ago, and the last time you move to an external company, is you would have had to like probably book off time. You had to make up that stupid excuse. You're like, I have a doctor's appointment or, you know, I'm just not feeling well. I don't know what it was. But you had to tell your team that you weren't going to be there that day. Because we were all in person and you had to come up with some reason. You can't just be like, Oh, I'm interviewing with another company. That's just like, doesn't fly. Versus like, yeah, you just block off your calendar, I've you know, whatever, I'm doing something else. It's not as big of a deal. So I think there's some benefit to that but it's still stressful.

Tara Ellis
like Netflix is maybe the only place in the planet where you probably could say I'm interviewing at another company right now because you asked for a damn number here you go

Ryan Burgess
you still have to be thoughtful about that you don't want like your your team to panic like oh jam is interviewing today. Like whatever what are we gonna do? If he's gone, and I think that you still have to be thoughtful about that. All right, well, let's jump into pics. In each episode of the front end happier podcast, we'd love to choose pics of things that we find interesting and we'd love to share with you. I know gems always got some great valley silicon pics where he loves to share things that are just too expensive that we should buy. But yeah, let's start off with pics. Maurice, what do you have for us?

Mars Jullian
Sure. Okay, so my first tip today is a website slash course, like CSS for J S dot Dev, which is really just like CSS for JavaScript developers. But what I really like about this particular course is that it's very hands on. And there's like a lot of exercises. And some of the animations and illustrations are really useful for figuring out how like different layers of the DOM are painted on top of each other. And overall, just like to, to learn like a more intuitive way of styling things like we have an intuitive way of writing JavaScript. And then the second one, I've plugged it before, probably on this show, it's not dev related, but it is Corona related, which is, I really love my masks. They're called Happy masks. And they're super, super comfortable. I have glasses, and I don't have like a fog fogging problem like I do with their masks. And also they're in 99. So not only are you protecting other people around you, but you're also increasing your own protect. Nice.

Ryan Burgess
All right, Jared, would you have for us,

Jared Jordan
okay, the quest to if you have that VR, and then you should download the game, the thrill of the fight, and it has your boxing. It's so fun. You can work up a good sweat and work out some aggression. It's really fun. And then the second one is this Nerf gun that's coming out in I don't know on the first of March, it shoots around corners. Like the Marines that wanted with Angelina Jolie, yes, I wanted to do that. And so I'm going to buy like a couple and me and my kids have Nerf gun wars all the time, but I'm not going to tell them that I can shoot around corners until they get

Tara Ellis
a couple of Nerf gun fights loosened I will be banned the next topic will be how I lost an eye playing good

Ryan Burgess
waders. It is kids that are losing how I became a bad parent 123 That's awesome. All right, Tara, how do you follow up on Nerf guns?

Tara Ellis
Sure. I don't know. Um, I'll keep it short. So, one music recommendation. This artist that I discovered the end of last year called Lianne la Havas. She has a record that she put out last year 2020 self titled and it's just absolutely fantastic. The record itself is just really great, super chill. But also if you're a Radiohead fan, it has an amazing cover weird fishes which is I just think it's really interesting what they do with it. I'm a big fan of if you're going to cover a song, you got to find a way to make it your own. And I was very impressed with that. And then the next thing is a movie called a promising young woman with Carey Mulligan. Which I watched it like maybe a week ago. It's I thought it was it was really tense and really great, but it's very it's quite polarizing. Apparently I have since learned listening or reading some reviews, but it's kind of billed as this me to air kind of feminist revenge movie, but it's not really that at all. So I just think if for nothing else, like the cinematography is amazing. The film is super original. It definitely has a point of view. And I really liked it. Except for the end. But that's a whole other topic. I'll have to come back on and talk about that. But a promising young woman Definitely.

Ryan Burgess
Awesome. Jem, what do you have for us,

Jem Young
Tara? I want to listen to this cover of weird fishes arpeggio because that is one of the better songs I think come on Radiohead in a while and I don't see how you cover it because like it's so specific because you know Thom Yorke has his magic and you just, you can't it's like I'm like a cover and Radiohead song like it. No, they have so much that goes into a song more than just I don't know, like the basic construct.

Tara Ellis
I played drums in an all female Radiohead cover band for five years.

Jem Young
I did know that because we're friends. That's what friends do.

Tara Ellis
But it's hard to make it your own. You got to hear it. You got to

Jem Young
hear and listen to it. I also have movie pic that similar to the movie terrorists grabbing props a young woman. This one was also marketed poorly. It's marketed as kind of an end of the world disaster apocalypse movie, but really sought. The movie has been night sky directed by George Clooney, starring George Clooney and a bunch of other people. But what it is, is it's it's really a story about the importance of family and the people you care about and kind of the person view variance of, like how humans how we try to triumph over things. And that's kind of one of the defining characteristics of humans versus animals is that we are persistent. And we will find a way to get through things. And even in the face of disaster, even in face of the end of everything, we still just go on, because that's, that's what we do. I really enjoy the next guy. I don't know if it's for everyone. But, man, it really comes together and ending, I thought it's a really powerful movie. My second pick is my valley silicon pick, that is the party episode where I pick things that are just too expensive. It's because we hear mostly Jared and Sara. They make too much money for their own good eBay buy things. They just perpetuate this industry of things that are marketed only to people that make above six figures. So my pick is the Zen egg. It is a wooden egg. For the low price of $60. You can contemplate your life as you hold this egg. I mean, I don't know it doesn't do anything. It's not smart. Like most of the pics I have it just it's a $60 egg. It's made out of wood. It's cool. I don't I don't know. Like, I got nothing for this one.

Tara Ellis
I keep meaning to go look at the video. I keep picking

Jem Young
on your choice here. And I'm glad you're asked you have mahogany here, which is pretty nice. You have a walnut. I'm sure there are other kinds. Does the price change the price has not changed? Which makes you question because I know what is not the same price but the egg the same price. So I assume that hefty margin in there. Anyways, watch the video on the website because I'm sure I'm still can't tell if this is a joke or not. To this day, I still can't tell if this is like serious. But you know if you're looking to buy $60 Whitney eggs, yeah, whatever that's on you. The alternative, which also posted a link in the show notes is for $6 on Amazon, you can get six of these eggs, which are identical. They're just you know, an order of magnitude cheaper. So you know, it's up to you. If you want to feel better about yourself. Get this in egg. That's my valid silicone pick. And my final pick is came out of nowhere. I just happen to see this is a freestyle. Well, I'm putting freestyle in air quotes because I don't believe anybody freestyles anymore, but is a freestyle by Macklemore called Trump's over Yes, I like I know. Macklemore isn't everybody's cup of tea, but he is a really good lyricist. And like, a lot of his work is really, really solid. But I just love all the points he makes. So he's not necessarily bashing Trump. He is a bit but he's bashing everybody because I did a channels my collective feeling of I don't know the zeitgeist of 2021, which is we made it you know, we made it through we got into Coronavirus vaccine, we got a new president in the White House. It's all good now. And Macklemore calls it like it is he's like what are you guys talking about half the country still voted for this clear, racist and is in favor of a lot of racist policies. Black people are still getting killed by police. Like, none of this has changed. Just because the year turned the corner doesn't mean all of our problems are over. And let's get back to what we were doing. And he calls like people on the right people on the left. Because it's it's the same mentality. It's just really good. And you could tell he's having fun with it. And typical Macklemore style, but he's like really has a good impact. So I recommend everybody listen to that.

Ryan Burgess
All right, well, I have two picks. One, I'm so happy that Jared and Tara did pick, it's so relevant to this episode, I'm going to give credit to Jared for the one who originally told us about it. But there's a book called The first 90 days. It's so great when you're planning to move to a new role. It tells you so many great things and how to plan for it. Be very thoughtful when you're ramping up into that new role is really leaning towards leaders or managers. But it's I think anyone could really learn from this book. If you're jumping into a new engineering role. It doesn't matter. It's really about like learning whether the right things that you need to ask when you're jumping into that new role. I highly recommend listening to it, reading it, whatever you like. It's a great book. And then my second pick, I feel like Jem's gonna have comments for this one, but it's okay. I'm good with that. I'm still gonna pick it. It's the therm pro meat thermometer yes gem. It's a smart meat thermometer, which we all know gem is not a big fan of smart anything. But you know what the thing is great. It monitors I got it as a gift. It monitors four pieces of meat or up to four pieces of meat on your barbecue or smoker, grill, whatever you're doing, and you can set different temperatures that you want to be met and it alerts you on your phone. Most of these thermometers that are smart are Bluetooth and this one I find for my research as got the best range on it. So that's kind of cool is some of them aren't very far this one will alert you and you could be a little ways away from your grill. So it will tell you when, when your steak is just the perfect temperature. So I've used it a few times. I'm really enjoying it. All right before we end the episode. I want to thank Tara Jared, thanks so much for joining us. It was a pleasure having you Where can people get in touch with you?

Jared Jordan
You can always find me on Twitter or LinkedIn, Twitter, I'm at Jared Jordan on LinkedIn. I'm something crazy, but just search for Jerry Jordan and find a beard. And it may be Jem or it may be

Tara Ellis
yes, you can find me on Twitter. My handle there is Maverick underscore mind and I pop in maybe a few times a quarter or so to kind of catch up and then I and then I go away again. You can also find me on LinkedIn. I think I think I'm I have to look it up. I think why I think I use my middle initial on LinkedIn because there's other Tara Ellis's so it Tarek Terra de Ellis. You can find me on there also.

Ryan Burgess
All right. Well, thank you all for listening. Today's episode, you can find us at front end happier.com You can subscribe to us on whatever you like to listen to podcasts on whether it be Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google. I don't know find it somewhere. You can also follow us on Twitter at @frontendhh, any last words

Jared Jordan
were pants during the interview? Make sure there's no perfection at least